#276: Ax It Or Stack It - Are Oatmeal, Creatine, and Olive Oil Health Heroes, or All Hype?
David Goldman, MS, RD, CSSD, CSCS
On today’s episode, Rip examines our health and wellness through a playful lens with a new format called, “Ax It or Stack It” where he discusses various hot topics in nutrition and health, guiding listeners on whether to embrace or discard these elements in their daily lives.
For this edition of “Ax it or Stack It,” Rip welcomes back nutrition and exercise scientist, David Goldman. David was the Chief Science Advisor for The Game Changers documentary and is also the Director of Research at Metabite.
On today’s chopping block, they discuss three highly debated topics - oatmeal, olive oil, and creatine. The landscape around these nutrition topics is rife with misinformation, so David and Rip cut through the noise and discuss their reasons behind their “ax it or stack it” recommendations.
The goal? Simplify wellness choices, cite the research, and empower listeners to navigate their health journeys with confidence and clarity.
Episode Highlights
0:00 Game On: Axe It or Stack It
0:40 Upcoming PLANTSTRONG Retreats
1:45 Special Sale on Meal Planner
4:20 The Olive Oil Debate
16:35 Oatmeal: Friend or Foe?
29:10 Creatine: To Use or Not?
46:30 Wrapping Up: Key Summaries from the Episode
Rip Esselstyn with David Goldman and Michael Quarshie, founders of Metabite
Episode Resources
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Full Episode Transcription via Transcription Service
[0:05] Today on the podcast, we're playing a fun game where we'll be picking some of your hot topics and questions and then telling you whether you should axe it or stack it, meaning should you cut it from your life or should you add it to your life? And it's a new theme. I think you're going to love it a lot. And it's coming up right after these words from PLANTSTRONG.
[0:32] Music.
Upcoming PLANTSTRONG Retreats
[0:40] All right, all right, all right. I have a couple of insider announcements that I want to share with you today. First off, we have just announced our 2025 retreats and we're offering early bird pricing for folks who like to plan ahead. I would encourage you to join us for an unforgettable experience in one of two breathtaking locations. The first, Sedona, Arizona, where you can embrace the vibrant energy of spring in the heart of red rock country. And the second, Black Mountain, North Carolina, where you'll find peace and inspiration amidst the autumn beauty of the Blue Ridge Mountains. Whether you're looking to jumpstart your plant-based journey, deepen your knowledge, or recharge with a like-minded community, these retreats offer the perfect blend of education, connection, and adventure.
[1:34] Head on over to liveplantstrong.com so you can reserve your spot and prepare
Special Sale on Meal Planner
[1:39] to transform your health, your mindset, and your life one PLANTSTRONG bite and step at a time. My second announcement, from now until the end of the month, you can take your PLANTSTRONG journey to the next level with the PLANTSTRONG Meal Planner. This is our biggest sale of the year. You can take $30 off an annual membership with the code BF30. That's B as in boy, F as in friend, 30. And your membership includes personalized daily recipes that are tailored to your goals, thousands of nutritionist approved whole food, plant strong meals.
[2:20] Smart and adaptive grocery lists, and saved menus, expert one-on-one coaching, and all kinds of time-saving cooking tips, exclusive discounts on PLANTSTRONG foods, and brand deals with some of our favorite companies and so much more. Whether you're just getting started or if you're looking to simplify your routine, the meal planner is your all-in-one solution for effortless PLANTSTRONG living. I would encourage you to hurry. This offer is only available for a limited time. Don't miss the chance to join our lowest price of the year. Visit liveplanstrong.com and use the code BF30 and save $30 off the annual plan. When you're building the frame of a new home, you want to stack the good wood that will help you build a strong and sturdy structure.
[3:14] And the wood that you don't need that has knots and curves and splinters in it, well, it makes sense to many times ax it. Well, in a way, that's what we're doing here every day at PLANTSTRONG. We are here to help you build strong and healthy foundations for your bodies and your minds. Now, the habits that we do every day and the actions that we take for our health, they're either going to build that strong foundation or a weaker one where disease and other issues are inevitable. That's why we're playing around with a new theme here for the podcast and it's called Axe It or Stack It. As you can imagine, we are inundated with questions around food, supplements, vitamins, anything that you can think of, we get it. And the landscape around wellness is rife with confusion and noise and misinformation. So the goal here is to cut right to the chase to help you make good decisions around your health.
The Olive Oil Debate
[4:20] Today, I'm going to be addressing three topics. The first is going to be olive oil. I think you all know where I stand on olive oil, but we're going to go a little deeper.
[4:32] Oatmeal. There's been a lot of buzz around oatmeal lately. So we'll talk about oatmeal and then creatine, the super supplement. And what are the benefits, if any of these items, and should you ax them from your life or do you want to stack them? But I don't want you to take it just from me. This week, I'm welcoming back David Goldman to the podcast to share the research behind our recommendations. Now, if you listened to the podcast last week, you know that David is the director of research at Metabyte, and he's also an exercise and nutrition scientist who was the lead researcher for the Game Changers documentary. David knows his stuff and the science behind it. So let's get a word from David on whether we're going to ax it or stack it.
[5:27] All right, playing strong people. I have David Goldman with me today and we're going to do something that we've never done before. And I'm going to throw a subject out to David and then he's, he and I are going to have a conversation around it. But basically what I want him to let me know, because David is a rockstar dietitian, nutrition and exercise scientist. I want him to say, hey, should we access, meaning get rid of it from our lives and from our diet, or should we stack it, meaning, you know what, let's include it in our diet. So we're going to have fun with David today. Expect a little maybe push and pull. We'll see. We'll just see how it goes. So are you ready, David? I'm ready. Let's go into the ring, baby. Let's go into the cage.
[6:21] And then just as a little reminder for people. David's been on the podcast twice before. He also was the chief scientific advisor for the Game Changers documentary, which is the most watched documentary on the planet. So David is, he's a special, he's a special human being in many ways. And I admire and respect him immensely. So David, thanks for being here. Oh, Rip. I almost believe that. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. So we're going to start. We're going to start with olive oil. And we just launched an episode with Dr. Monica Agarwal called Breaking Up with Olive Oil about her research in the Journal of the American Heart Association. And but I love your perspective you know you you are such a glutton for digging into the science and the research and the data you know you nerd out on that stuff and I love that you do that so let me just start off asking you this question David do you personally consume olive oil.
[7:29] Oh, man. Okay. So I usually don't disclose my own eating because then people will compare it and they'll be like, oh, well, whatever. Anyway, the answer is personally, no, I don't eat olive oil. Okay. But that doesn't mean that it's not still a step in the right direction for so many other people who would otherwise be putting butter on their whole grain pasta. Right. So, so I think it's fair to say that instead of consuming or putting butter on your pasta or whatever it is, olive oil is a healthier choice than butter or Crisco. Yes? 100%. And just to nerd out for just two seconds, meta-analysis, 24 cohorts. I don't know how to pronounce the author's last name, but something like Neuschwander, I'm sorry if that person hears this, found that substituting butter with olive oil was linked to an 18% reduction in risk of dying early. So I just want to be clear, like the data are in olive oil, beets, butter, no question about it. Um, and I still don't eat it because of the things that we're probably going to talk about next. Yeah. And so, you know, in Monica Agarwal's study, she was comparing in, in both cohorts, uh, those, they were both eating a whole food plant-based diet. One group was consuming four and a half.
[8:51] Added tablespoons of olive oil a day. And the other was less than my understanding was a teaspoon or less. Is that your understanding? Right. So essentially a negligible amount for the second group. And, and she achieved, I think what was pretty profound cardiovascular benefits in the group that didn't have, or had little to no olive oil. And so my question, my next question to you is in the context of a whole food plant-based diet are you a fan of olive oil or no olive oil great question dr agarwal's research is amazing um i love that crossover study uh it was like 40 participants and they followed them over it was like four weeks and had them switch and it was incredible and um yeah it like you said the benefits for specifically for LDL cholesterol lowering, we're really profound. We're significantly better in the group that did not consume all that olive oil. So yeah, I mean, given that cardiovascular diseases are so prevalent and so lethal, it absolutely makes sense. Almost all of us could do with additional LDL lowering. And so pulling that out would be even more useful than just a whole food plant-based diet that kind of, you know.
[10:16] Like a Mediterranean style where they're a little more liberal with their use of olive oil. It seems like pulling that out and replacing that instead with more whole plant foods would be, would be productive for people. Yeah. Let's say, let's say that I'm an individual. I've got insulin resistance. I've got, meaning I've got pre-diabetes. I've had a heart attack. I come to you. I said, David, what can I do so I can abolish my heart disease? I can become insulin sensitive. Should I consume a little bit of olive oil on a daily basis?
[10:54] Um, should I consume it? I mean, I would say if you came to me as my patient in this scenario, I would say something like, is it something that gives you tremendous pleasure to the point that it would outweigh the benefits of removing it? Like if you're saying, Hey, I just want to live. I want to see my grandkids graduate from college and I, you know, there's stuff I want to do. And so for me, the most important thing is that I'm around for this. And so whether I have the olive oil or not, it's not like a big deal, but should I have it just because I heard it's health promoting, I'd be like, absolutely not. If you don't really care and the life promoting benefits of removing it is more impactful for you, 100%, I would pull that out. From just an outcomes standpoint, you're going to do better from a health perspective if that olive oil is replaced with something of higher quality like fruits and vegetables and whole grains and beans in the diet. No, this person that is coming to you is not from Sicily. They have no Mediterranean blood in their system. So it's okay, right? They're not going to be basically dishonoring their heritage, the Mediterranean heritage. So they just want to know, David, I've heard it's beneficial. Is it with my heart disease and my insulin resistance? In the nature of our podcast, I'd say ax it. In that situation, absolutely ax it.
[12:12] Your lack of Sicilian grandparents won't be rolling over in their grave by your Okay. Love it. So I think the audience knows how I feel about olive oil, but I'm stunned and amazed, like what, and you and I had this conversation, but I want to talk about it on the record. What is it that, in your opinion, people find health promoting about olive oil?
[12:46] Uh i mean what do i think people think i mean i think i mean because i did a google search and there's and and it's like oh my god it's it's the polyphenols and it's the antioxidants but when you dig down you realize there's basically it's all smoke and mirrors yes i agree with you it's really i think it really comes down more to what it doesn't have than what it does have like you said people talk about the polyphenols you hear people talk about the vitamin e but then you actually look at it and you're like how much vitamin e is actually in that and really not much So I think the benefit really, in this case, does come down to, well, it doesn't have as much saturated fat as ghee or butter does or cheese or whatever else. And so that's where the upside comes in. But yeah, no, it's not like delivering anything of real value to the diet. And the only reason I think why it comes across as protective in these larger studies is just that it's displacing something that is like far more really deleterious to our health. Yeah. Yeah. So I want to I want to just give the give the audience a little information and then I'm going to move on to our to our next axit or stack it subject.
[13:55] But I did a little little research. And what I discovered is that, you know, people always say, well, it's got antioxidants. Well, it really doesn't have any E. It has zero C. It doesn't have selenium. It does have trace amounts of vitamin E. And I'm going to refer to my notes here so I get this right. But one tablespoon and one tablespoon of olive oil, you're going to find 1.9 milligrams of vitamin E.
[14:17] You could get you could actually get twice that amount with one cup of of spinach at seven calories instead of 120 calories. You could get. 4.2 milligrams with one small avocado that's 50 calories you could get with with one cook cup of broccoli. you could get 2.3 milligrams that would deliver 31 calories. And then with one small red bell pepper, you'd get 2.1 milligrams that's 25 calories. So just to let people know, you know, in relation to vitamin E, you can get, it's everywhere in a whole food plant-based diet. So it's not like olive oil is this hidden treasure of, of, of vitamin E and, and antioxidants. I'm with you. Can I add one, one thing to that real quick? Please. It's funny to me, again, the antioxidant content, people will acclaim olive oil, and then they'll bash these sources of omega-6 fatty acids like corn oil. There's a paper that we referenced in the Game Changers. Researchers looked at the antioxidant content of 3,100 different foods, and I just pulled it up while you were talking just because I was curious. And the antioxidant content of olive oil is like...
[15:37] Less than sometimes even half of corn oil let's just call it the same but the antioxidant content of olive oil is really like we'll call it comparable ish to wow and it's like what are we really you know we're either going to lift them both up or we're going to bring them both down um but olive oil probably shouldn't get the the and actually some research shows that those other types of oils these omega-6 rich oils might even be you know even better i'm again i'm not recommending that anyone have them we can say less worse it's just a question of framing but But I do just want to say we should probably if we're looking at antioxidant content, it's not like it's like you said, it doesn't stand out head and shoulders above the other oils. It's getting some claim that it probably doesn't deserve.
[16:18] OK, we're going to we're going to move on with olive oil. But I think that that in the context that we were talking about, whole food, plant based, heart disease, diabetes, if you want to be the healthiest version of you, probably ax it. OK, yeah. Next oatmeal.
Oatmeal: Friend or Foe?
[16:38] So I just, David, I want you to know that I think that in another life I was a horse. I love oatmeal that much. And I find it to be extremely loaded with all kinds of goodness, whether it's the fiber, the protein, the fat, the complex carbohydrates. I have so many people now that approach me saying, I'm ditching the oatmeal because I've heard that it spikes my blood sugar levels and it is like something I need to stay away from. So I'd love for us to next tackle oatmeal. What are your thoughts on oatmeal?
[17:17] I would like to. There are so many different things I'd like to say about you being a horse in another life. You are i won't go down that road yeah but i won't i won't i won't do that but just know that i want to um okay so oatmeal uh okay so first i i just we'll zoom out for one second we'll zoom right into to oatmeal but i want to zoom out to whole grains for just one second right because people have this thought that whole grains are going to increase like blood sugar and then they're going to become diabetic and it's going to be horrible. And, and so instead they're going to have like chicken or eggs or whatever. And I just want to be clear. Um, so I referenced before a meta-analysis of 24 different cohorts and in the same research, they found that replacing poultry, chicken, turkey, whatever, with whole grains decreased risk of type two diabetes by 13%. Replacing eggs with whole grains decreased type two diabetes. I'm sorry. Yeah. Replacing eggs with whole grains decreased risk of type two diabetes by 21%. So I just want to be clear. Replacing whole grains for eggs. Yeah. So, so kicking the eggs out, adding the whole grains in. Yeah. I'm sorry. I guess I misspoke, but I just wanted to say.
[18:32] Even though there's like way more carbohydrate in these whole grains, it's still decreased the risk of diabetes. And this is where I think people think a little bit too linearly where it's like, Oh, carbs that I eat means carbs in my blood means insulin, like havoc and everything goes awry. And I just want to be clear, like it just does not work that way. And, and, um, you know, pasta primavera beats a chicken Italian dish for your grandma. We talked about before, I guess. And then same thing with breakfast, like to have oatmeal instead of eggs. You know, there's all these things people aren't even factoring in that are going to influence blood sugar, like, um, and risk of type two diabetes, advanced glycation end products, all these things that I won't go into right now, but it's so much more than just doesn't have carbs or doesn't it. So yes, I want to say oatmeal and all other whole grains are, are going to be fantastic when we're talking about, uh, type two diabetes risk. And then if we just specifically look at oatmeal, um, uh, meta analysis of 10 randomized control trials. The author's last name is Musa Veloso. And they basically compared the effects of different types of... So it basically brought a whole bunch of different studies together where the control was either it was like white bread or cream of rice.
[19:48] And they compare like that sort of stuff. And then they compare it against oats, groats, thick oats, instant oats. And, um, and then they measured how much blood sugar and insulin rose after people would eat these. And the order went like this. It was like, oh, groats were, were King. Thick oats came next. And then instant or refined oats had the same effect on blood sugar and insulin as the control, which, like I said, was like white bread or cream of rice. So to be clear, you know, again, we're talking about, you know, blood sugar. We could talk about other outcomes, too. But, yeah, I mean, I'm a huge fan of oats. I made I mean, every morning I make a massive instant pot of oats and the less refined versions, the better. No doubt about it. I think. Yeah. So so I think it's I'd love to zero in on that for a sec. So let's go from the least process to the most processed. And you kind of hit upon it, but I want to repeat it. So, oat groats are kind of like the most kind of as close to grown as possible. Then steel cut oats. Then I think the old fashioned oats. And then you have the quick oats, right?
[20:58] And so, we're a fan. I mean, tell me if you agree with this. We're a fan of kind of the top three levels. Oat groats, steel cut oats, and the old fashioned oats. Yeah, for sure. Right? And those are the least refined and those are going to do a better job of stabilizing your blood sugar levels. Correct. And beyond that too, I mean, yes, definitely stabilizing blood sugar. Also, it feeds your healthy, good gut bacteria. You know, when you process and refine something so much, your body gets greedy and absorbs all of the nutrition and we don't end up feeding those, our microbiome in a way that's really useful and does wonderful things for our brain, for our immunity, for all these other things. So yeah, I agree with you a thousand percent. the less refined we can get, the better. And so, so people understand when you eat, let's say I eat a bowl of steel cut oats or old fashioned oats, and I've got some strawberries on top and a banana and I put it, I have a little bit of almond milk with it. It's not sweetened with anything unsweetened. Typically what kind of a rise in blood sugar should most people see? And is that, and I would imagine that's nothing to be concerned about. So if it raises 45 points, goes to 145 milligrams, is that fine?
[22:21] Yeah. You know, um, people are really into these, uh, continuous glucose monitoring devices, these CGMs, and, um, they can be really, really useful in, in, um, like for example, patients with type one diabetes, but there's now this huge wave of people who are using them who are, who don't have diabetes and, uh.
[22:40] Who I think are going to drive themselves pretty nuts using this and tracking how their blood sugar responds to certain meals, but not others. You'd, it would make you think that bacon would be like an ideal meal because your blood sugar doesn't rise quite so much. I think what really matters so much more than like, how did my blood sugar rise from this single meal is, you know, how did it look across the entire day? That's called a 24 hour area under the curve, um, where you can see more globally how it, how it looks. Um, and then even better, you know, we can also look at, uh, you know, a one C levels that are over a three month period. And really, I think that if people are tracking and really concerning themselves about how a whole food plant based meal increases their blood sugar, I think that they're aiming at the wrong target. I think they're just going to drive themselves nuts. And instead, I would just eat this delicious food that is not problematically increasing their blood sugar.
[23:32] The only people who would want to consider maybe like I don't know if regular oats work for me are people who who have celiac disease, but they can even get gluten free oats. So it's like you just have to look a little bit more carefully and then you can get it. But I don't think that there's any large group of people who needs to avoid them. The blood sugar response is just like. All right. So so so so according to David Goldman, there's no swaths of people that should remove blood. Um old-fashioned steel or oat groats from their diets and so is this a official stack it stamp of approval yeah yeah you crack me up yes yes this is an official stack it all right fantastic all right anything else you want to say about oatmeal or should we move on to creatine.
[24:22] Uh yeah i mean oh i just want to say you mentioned that breakfast that you talked about with the banana and the strawberry and all that in the um there's just research came out you know relatively recently looking at bananas i don't know have you talked about this on the podcast all bananas potentially blocking absorption of uh of polyphenols and did you guys talk about this at all or no no no this is this is a new subject that you are taking us in oh i'm sorry i'll stop i'll stop but i just want to say have your banana but ideally don't have it with your berries or with like cacao or whatever, because, um, you know, these really antioxidant rich foods, because the bananas could block, um, some of that absorption. So that breakfast you said sounds awesome. Maybe just replace the banana with mango or something. And so, and so this is very troubling to me. So I like the banana strawberry combo. And so what is it in the banana that blocks the, did you say the polyphenol content that's in the berries? Just blocks you from absorbing it. And I'm sorry, Rip. And you know what? You should still have it then. What is it? What is it in the banana? So it's the same enzyme that causes the banana to brown.
[25:31] The banana uses that as a defense against like little bugs that might try to bite it and eat it. And so it uses that and it turns some of these antioxidants into these antimicrobial chemicals that help keep it safe. But the same at the same time, that also sort of decreases body's ability to absorb all of those awesome, healthy plant chemicals. But let me ask you this. If I'm eating a whole food plant-based diet throughout the day and I'm getting massive amounts of servings of all these things, in the grand scheme of things, in totality, do I really care if I'm getting 20 instead of 50% absorption of these things? So it would be a larger difference than that. But I understand what you're saying. I would say it's only important to the degree to which you consider berries a uniquely health promoting food, which I would say berries are particularly potent. And so if you just had the banana with the oatmeal and I don't know, some raisins or something, that would be one thing. But I look at berries as like, oh, these are awesome. I need to make sure that I absorb all of their goodness. You could still have the strawberries with the banana then and then just also have a handful of berries later. I'd be totally cool with that, especially because in this situation, it's like the Italian grandma comes back.
[26:55] In this case, you love the banana. I want you to have the banana with the oatmeal. It's important for me because it's important for you.
[27:02] Maybe just also have a handful of berries later in the day if you can because i want you to absorb them because i want you to live forever listen if you had any idea how many organic wild frozen blueberries i have during during the day it is phenomenal so so before we move on to creatine i to ask you this. So with my bowl of steel cut oats in the morning, the sliced strawberries with a.
[27:36] With a over-ripened, almost green sliced banana. Axe it or stack it? In a vacuum? Keep it, Rick. Let's keep it. You love it so much. Well, but I'm wondering if the banana, because I love my bananas, like almost green as opposed to browned. If you have it greener, are those substances still in there that are going to block the absorption? They're still in there. Anytime, if you were to cut it open and let it aerate, you'd see it turn brown. Anything that is going to turn brown like that is going to have, yeah. I mean, you're going to have more of that in apples, let's say, than you will in, yeah, I mean, in berries. You're going to have, bananas just have this freakishly high quantity of it. The other foods that have that like potatoes and mushrooms, we cook those foods. So it denatures this enzyme and it's not a problem. Um, but yeah, I mean, I, I really like given how much you love this meal, there's not a chance. I'm not going to ask this if you pay me a million bucks.
[28:44] All right. All right. So we're going to stack, we're going to stack on the banana. Yeah. All right. All right. So we're going to creatine right now. And you know what? I've just made a decision on the fly. This is going to be our last Axe that are stack it subject of the day. It's because I was two hosts, wasn't it, Rip? No, we're doing great. But this way I get to have you back on the podcast again for another three subjects. Okay.
Creatine: To Use or Not?
[29:12] So creatine, Axe that are stack it. And I first, I want you to know, let me just set up the backstory. When I was in the fire academy back in 1997, all of a sudden, half the guys that were in the class, and we had a class of 39 cadets.
[29:35] Half the guys started using creatine. And for the first, and this was a, this was a six month long academy. For the first two months, every morning we have to run two miles around the track and it always would turn into a race. Right. And then these guys started using creatine and they all gained about 10 pounds. They were talking about, you know, how great and strong they felt. And then on these two mile runs they would all start cramping up and i was like god i'm never going to touch creatine and i have no idea how many grams you know they were taking a day or milligrams whatever but that was my first introduction to creatine in 1997 and then lately i've heard so many people talk about how they're doing like five three seven um is it Grams or milligrams? Help me out. Grams. Grams. Thank you. Grams a day.
[30:31] I've heard that it's good for brain health. It's good for heart health. It's good for performance health. And so I just, I want to come to you to get the skinny on creatine because I'm considering trying it for a month just to see what happens. So what is it? And let's start with that. What is it? So um so creatine it's a compound made up of three amino acids methionine arginine and glycine, and it basically regenerates energy so in the form of atp right we learned that in like high school bio um this is like the basic unit of energy and so creatine um helps us create more ATP, more energy rapidly. And that's used mostly for our muscles and also to some degree for our brain. Um, and that's because we, we store carbohydrate in our muscles. It's mostly in our muscles and our liver. There's also a little bit in our brain. Um, and so, yeah, I mean, there's research looking at it for, uh, for brain function and for athletic purposes. So for, um, For the brain, there's a systematic review, six studies that looked at nearly 300 people, and they found that it may improve short-term memory and reasoning, intelligence, and such in healthy people.
[31:55] For there's more conflicting results for things like long term memory, spatial memory, word fluency, reaction time, you know, mental fatigue, things like that.
[32:05] So, yeah, I mean, it seems interesting and promising potentially for brain function.
[32:11] As far as the athletic piece of this, there's a position paper from the Journal of the International Society of Sports Nutrition. And, yeah, I mean, their conclusion was, yeah, it really does help for these athletic purposes. And again, here, there's also a systematic review. There's a systematic review of 23 studies looking at folks under the age of 50, although there's also research in older people, too, showing that people who are taking creatine are going to, on average, they'll add about 10 more pounds of upper body strength, about 25 more pounds of lower body strength.
[32:45] Wait, wait, explain that. You mean 10 more pounds as far as if they're exercising, if they're lifting weights? Yeah, I think of like bench press. Okay. You're not going to gain 10 pounds of muscle weight on your upper body and 25 on your lower body. Okay. Definitely not. Just the strength we're talking about. Yeah. Oh, the lean mass will increase too, because really very quickly, because it will sort of pull water into the, the muscle, you know, you know, the, the muscle itself will actually swell. Um, so yeah, I mean, you'll just look more. So, so are most people when they do creatine, do they gain a little bit of weight yeah yeah for sure um and then i i published a paper on this in the international journal of disease reversal and prevention um a lot of people were, prevention or reversal, I don't remember. But basically, people thought because this is found in animal foods, not in plant foods, even though our bodies can make it, by the way. But people thought that, and I think a lot of people still think that if you're following a whole food plant-based diet that doesn't contain any creatine, you're at a disadvantage because people are eating omnivorous diets or eating that creatine, and so they're going to be able to perform better. And basically, this paper that I wrote was saying, no, it's really just not the case there's no good evidence to suggest that if anything the evidence suggests it's a it's a wash in terms of creatine adding this extra bonus so i just want to say yeah it's it's like yes it helps build strength um and size it can be useful for some but not all outcomes regarding uh brain um.
[34:14] And yeah i mean there are a few other potential um upsides for it like um if you have great b12 stores because you're taking your vitamin b12 which you're supposed to do um and if you get enough folate from eating, uh, you know, leafy greens and beans. Some people still will have, um, elevated levels of homocysteine, which is, um, uh, a problem for cardiovascular diseases. And so research shows that taking even just a small amount of creatine, like a gram a day, um, can drop homocysteine levels, um, significantly. And so for people who have hypo, I'm sorry, hyper homocysteinemia, um, you'd see this in a blood lab, uh, that your doctor had ordered, then in those cases, taking a gram of creatine a day could have some value. But I don't think most people need it. I think it's interesting and could be useful for athletes, for sure. For the majority of folks, I don't think there's really any compelling reason to do it. So is there any research with creatine showing that it helps with longevity?
[35:20] Like where you would live longer if you were taking creatine? Longevity, health span, yes. I haven't even seen any research that was designed to look for that. I mean, there would be so many confounding factors, right? Because if you were to let's just follow along a group of people long into the future and see, you know, 15, 20, 30 years out and see the people who take creatine live longer or less long, it's probably going to be confounded pretty hard with those are probably people who are going to exercise a lot more. And they're probably more likely and so that exercise is going to make this get a little confusing. Sure. They're also going to be eating differently. I'm sure they're going to be less likely to smoke. So I haven't seen any research to look at this. Yeah. And so if someone were to say, I mean, it helps you live longer, I'd be really interested to see what evidence they have to support that. Good point. I mean, I've heard it's the most researched supplement ever.
[36:14] On the planet. Would you, is that, is that your understanding as well? For performance specifically or for anything? Just in, in some total, I've heard that creatine is the most researched supplement. Well, I mean, honestly, I haven't, I can't speak to that intelligently. It would surprise me. I would not be surprised to hear that it was the most researched athletic, you know, maybe protein powder, I would think would be more, uh, researched in the athletic domain. But again, I really just, I really don't know. I cannot speak authoritatively to that. But I would also think that for other purposes, I don't know. I think like vitamin supplement or something would have been more researched. But again, I really don't know. Yeah. So if somebody is considering taking creatine because of everything they've heard about it, would you say that it's a safe supplement? And are there any side effects that are deleterious that you're aware of?
[37:09] Um i would say and this is the annoying disclaimer that i have to give but you got to say it definitely talk to your health professional before um taking any uh new supplement you know like creatine um i know that there are certain contraindications like kidney disease and high blood pressure and liver disease um so again definitely check with your uh with your medical doctor but um yeah i mean a lot of the research about the cramping for example that you shared before a lot of there there are some case reports um but again that position paper that i mentioned from the journal of the international society of sports nutrition they they go through the safety profile pretty well and it seems like there's no systematically performed research that found these really detrimental effects since you are going to gain weight with it you're obviously you know, you're going to, I'm not surprised that those people who were, who took creatine on your, in your, um, yeah.
[38:12] I'm not surprised. I mean, if you gain five pounds, whatever of water weight, that's not going to be helpful for a long distance athlete. You know, you were involved in triathlons too. Like there are certain sports where this would be, It's counterproductive, I imagine, and certain sports would be helpful, like professional football versus a long distance runner. So I wouldn't just say everyone should go for it. I would say that it's the sort of thing that you would take on a case by case basis, and that the default would be probably don't take it. And then if you have some, you know, performance oriented goal that would warrant it, go for it. Hmm. Now, am I, am I, am I allowed to ask you if you're taking creatine? Yeah. So I actually, you can totally ask. I, I actually do have hyperhomocysteinemia. Um, my dad has it too. And I have my, my vitamin B12 levels are fantastic. I measure this through something called MMA methylmalonic acid. And my B12 is great. Um, I get tons of folate in my diet. I don't have like MTHFR or one of these, um, conditions that would make it hard for me to get the folate that I'm consuming to actually absorb it and use it. So yeah, I do take it. I take a gram a day and it's true. My homocysteine levels dropped like a rock. So that's why I take it. If that was not the case, if I didn't have hyperhomocysteinemia without it, I wouldn't be taking it. And I'm sure that if we have any listeners that are interested in trying creatine.
[39:40] Are all creatines the same or is there, I mean... Is there a benefit to doing your research and knowing what kind and who the company is that you're getting your creatine from? Yeah. So there's a certification called NSF. And basically is a way of assessing whether the supplement has what it says it has and doesn't have stuff that it isn't mentioning. Because oftentimes, you know, people will lay supplements with all sorts of things. Sometimes they won't even include the active ingredient or they'll have small amounts of it. And so I would consider an NSF certification. And then also there's like consumer labs and consumer reports that actually do these independent testings of these supplements. And so I would check out consumer labs or consumer reports, remember that NSF. And then in terms of the actual type of creatine, creatine monohydrate is the most widely studied form of it. And so I would aim there rather than it uh a more expensive less tested form like um creatine ethyl ester or um you know there's all these other kinds and it's just not necessary so yeah monohydrate nsf um and then consumer labs or consumer reports for sure so in summation with creatine.
[41:01] Uh where do you stand as far as are we axing it are we stacking it I don't know. I mean, like you gotta help me out with this. Uh, if you are a like college football player trying to get the extra edge so that maybe you can get drafted into the NFL and you're like, Hey, um, you know, I want to do something that's pretty safe. Um, you know, I don't want to take anabolic steroids or anything like that, but I really do want to, to, uh, stack the odds in my favor of, of making it. I would say, yeah, like definitely go for it. If you're, um, you know, I don't know. Well, my dad who just wants to be healthy and happy and have a good quality of life doesn't care if he, you know, my mom isn't going to care if he flexes an extra inch of bicep. I'd say, dad, you can probably skip it. What about, so it's funny because I knew we were going to be talking today and I was at some practice and I'm swimming, uh, with some of these ex Olympians, right? Gold medalists, actually, uh, Clark Smith. And he was telling me how he takes five grams a day. He said, it's amazing what it can do to give him that extra little percent, uh, when he's in the weight room or swimming.
[42:14] And he said he can go like an extra, maybe, I don't know. I think he said like two or 3% where otherwise you'd give out. And then another guy was saying, Oh yeah, you definitely rip want to get at it. He's like, I feel like my brain, I can just think much clearer. Now, I don't know if it's a placebo effect or what. And, uh, so I'm just like, anyway, I think where my takeaway with creatine is I want to try it. I want to try it. I want to see how it helps me. Um, you know, obviously I perform at a high level still just about every day. So I want to see if it helps me in that realm. i'd love to see if it what it does for you know my brain and um and then does it do anything for energy or absolutely nothing like do you feel like a little bit better during the day i mean i don't really need to yeah i mean i i'm very very very wary of a placebo effect i mean like.
[43:14] In terms of feeling better, I'm like on hypervigilance where I'm like, but is this really what I feel or is this just what I think I feel? And what if I took a sugar pill? Would it work the same? So I'm like the wrong guy to ask about that. I don't notice any difference, but I don't notice any difference from anything. I'm like just cold and distant with that. But I do want to say, in terms of the swimming, I just pulled this up. It seems like almost 20% of swimmers in the NCAA in 2014 reported taking creatine, and that the events that might benefit from creatine supplementation include 50-meter swim sprints.
[43:55] 100- and 200-meter swim events. And there's some research looking at this. So again, I'm just pulling this right from that position paper that I mentioned. Yeah, I mean, might as well go for it and give it a shot and see what you think. And if you don't like it, you can come off. I don't think loading it is the way to go. I think a lot of people will do that. You know, you take like 20 grams a day for a week. You can do that if you're in some rush to make sure that you get a fast result for some reason that you just didn't plan ahead for. I think you'd be doing great just taking something like let's just say four or five grams per day, um just moving forward and then if you're like hey i'm just not liking this you can come off it and then it'll just take some time you'll use up what you have and you'll go back to where you are and is there is there a break-in period like you know how many days or weeks it takes before it actually you can like performance wise feel a result from it yeah it'll be much faster if you load it but like i'm saying i i wouldn't i wouldn't do the loading approach um yeah i mean uh i don't remember off the top of my head there there is an actual answer to this and i just don't know off the top of my head exactly how long it takes for um enough creatine to be loaded into the muscle for you to see a significant gain in your uh you know exercise pursuits yeah but yeah i guess you'll Let us know in the next podcast. All right. So, um.
[45:15] Let's, let's, let's wrap up and, and, and, and let's talk about where we, where we've been today. So we started with olive oil. It was a fun conversation. I think where we landed with, there is exit, don't stack it. Right. Especially in the context of a whole food plant-based diet. Um, and if you're, if you're not Sicilian and you know, your, your grandmother's not going to roll over in her grave when she finds out that you're not doing olive oil. Next, we talked about oatmeal, more of the unprocessed, the oat groats, the steel cut oats, the old-fashioned oats. And I think that the resounding yell that I heard there was stack it, don't ax it. Okay, that sounds good. Yep. And then creatine. Creatine, I feel like it was kind of a mixed message there. It wasn't really definitively one way or the other. I think that what I heard was it's kind of more of an individual basis, depending upon who you are, what you're trying to achieve. And so this is kind of a, eh, exit or stack it. It's up to you. Maybe try it.
Wrapping Up: Key Takeaways
[46:30] Sounds good. I like it. I like the takeaways. Yeah. Yeah. Great.
[46:35] David, I, I loved our exit or snack it episode. I, can I invite you now to come back again in about a month or so, and we can do another three subjects. Sounds good. I'm game. Are you going to, can we talk about the horse thing again and maybe make some more, some more horse phrases and. Wilbur. Did you ever watch that show with Wilbur, Wilbur, the talking horse? Yeah, for sure. This is Mr. Ed. I learned that he put peanut butter on his gums to have him make that. Like, I don't know if it's true or not. It was oatmeal. It was oatmeal. Yeah. Oatmeal with a little bit, a little bit of, um, of peanut butter on it. No olive oil. No, no. And a little, and a little smidgen of creatine as well. I like it. I like it. Yeah. All right. Yeah. All right, David. man all the best will you give me a little PLANTSTRONG fist bump and love on the way out for sure PLANTSTRONG my brother thanks pal.
[47:45] I thought that was a ton of fun. Thank you, David, for cutting through the noise and helping us make common sense recommendations. If you enjoyed this fun format, let us know. It is our goal to bring it back every few months and address more of your questions. What exactly would you like to know? Please let us know or leave us a voicemail with your Axit or Stackit suggestions that link is in today's show notes thank you all of you for listening and until next week always always keep it PLANTSTRONG, the PLANTSTRONG podcast team includes carrie barrett laurie kortowich and amy mackie if you like what you hear do us a favor and share the show with your friends and loved ones you can always leave a five-star rating and review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. And while you're there, make sure to hit that follow button so that you never miss an episode. As always, this and every episode is dedicated to my parents, Dr. Caldwell B. Esselstyn Jr. And Ann Crile Esselstyn. Thanks so much for listening.
