#201: Alona Pulde, MD and Matthew Lederman, MD - Find Deeper Connections with Your Loved Ones and Go From Wellness to Wonderful

 

Drs. Matthew Lederman and Alona Pulde pioneered the medical program that was used in the film, Forks Over Knives, and after the popularity of that groundbreaking film, they went on to co-author multiple books including The Forks Over Knives Plan, The Forks Over Knives Cookbook, Forks Over Knives Family and the Whole Foods Diet with former Whole Foods CEO, John Mackey. 


Today, we discuss their latest book Wellness to Wonderful: 9 PILLARS FOR LIVING HEALTHIER, LONGER, AND WITH GREATER JOY. Through a comprehensive and beautiful combination of Eastern, Western, and lifestyle medicine practices, Matt and Alona work with their patients to help them wake up every day thinking, “My life is wonderful.”

They do this through private sessions, support groups, and courses on nutrition, nonviolent verbal communication (or NVC), spirituality, weight loss, and more. This isn’t your average 10-minute doctor's appointment. Wellness to Wonderful is a complete life paradigm shift for you and your family.

Their book’s nine fundamental pillars of health include: self, nutrition, activity, play, sleep, family & friends, work, spirituality, and the natural world, but we focus much of our conversation around non-violent communication and family connection because we at PLANTSTRONG truly believe that communication and connection is KEY to a wonderful life. 

Episode Resources

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WeHeal.Health - Connect with Drs. Pulde and Lederman on all of their classes and programs

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Theme Music for Episode

Full YouTube Transcript

Rip Esselstyn:

I need to give an update on one of our most popular PLANTSTRONG products. And that's the Rip's Big Bowl cereal that has... Oh, it kills me. That has been out of stock for a few months. And this is because back in March when California was hit with torrential flooding, our manufacturing partner was literally underwater. The levee broke. They had flooding like they've never had in almost 60 years. And we had just shipped all of our ingredients and fresh bags ready to be produced when the storm hit, and it took weeks before the workers were even able to return to work and sort through all the damage.

Well, we just got the good news that everything has been restored, our fresh ingredients have been delivered, and an all new batch of Rip's Big Bowl cereals are headed our way this week. Yes. If you want to be first to know when these hit our shelves, head over to plantstrongfoods.com and enter your email to unlock 10% off your first order, and that will ensure that you get the announcement when these super popular cereals are back in stock. I want to thank you all so much for your patience, and believe me, no one has been missing the Big Bowl more than me. Thanks.

I'm Rip Esselstyn and welcome to the PLANTSTRONG Podcast. The mission at PLANTSTRONG is to further the advancement of all things within the plant-based movement. We advocate for the scientifically proven benefits of plant-based living and envision a world that universally understands, promotes and prescribes plants as a solution to empowering your health, enhancing your performance, restoring the environment, and becoming better guardians to the animals we share this planet with. We welcome you wherever you are on your PLANTSTRONG journey. And I hope that you enjoy this show.

I want to welcome you to a very special episode of the Plan Strong podcast with two pioneering physicians, doctors, Matt Lederman and Alona Pulde. If their names aren't all together familiar, their body of work certainly will be Matt and Alona pioneer the medical program that was shown in the film Forks Over Knives, and after the popularity of that groundbreaking film, they went on to co-author multiple books including The Forks Over Knives Plan and the Whole Foods Diet that they wrote with former Whole Foods CEO, John Mackey.

Today we're going to discuss their latest book called Wellness to Wonderful: 9 Pillars for Living Healthier Longer, and with Greater Joy. Through a comprehensive and beautiful combination of Eastern, Western and lifestyle medicine practices Matt and Alona work with their patients to wake up every day thinking, "My life is wonderful." And they do this through private sessions, support groups, and courses on nutrition, nonviolent verbal communication or NVC, spirituality, weight loss, and much more.

But this isn't your average 10-minute doctor's appointment. Wellness to Wonderful is a complete life paradigm shift. And you'll even hear me get a little vulnerable myself today. There's so much wonderful content to unpack, but I focus the vast majority of our conversation around nonviolent communication and connection with my family because I truly believe that communication and connection is the key to a wonderful life.

So with that, please enjoy this conversation with Dr. Matt and Alona. Let's take it away. Matt and Alona. Well, I should say Matt Lederman, Alona Pulde. Welcome to the PLANTSTRONG podcast. I don't think I've ever had you on before, have I?

Alona Pulde, MD:

Don't think so.

Matthew Lederman, MD:

No.

Rip Esselstyn:

And that is a crying shame. That's [inaudible 00:04:31] crying shame considering how far we go back. And I think for both of us, something that really helped put a stake in the ground for us and set our careers was the documentary Forks Over Knives.

Matthew Lederman, MD:

Yes.

Alona Pulde, MD:

Absolutely.

Rip Esselstyn:

And that goes back to what, 2011, right? When that was first launched?

Matthew Lederman, MD:

Yeah, I think we started talking to Brian, I want to say 2009 even, but by the time it came out, I think it was closer to end of 2010 or '11. Yeah, something like that.

Rip Esselstyn:

Yeah. Exactly. Right. And then of course, from Forks Over Knives, you guys got the invitation from John Mackey just like I did to come work with Whole Foods, right?

Alona Pulde, MD:

Yep. Same trajectory.

Rip Esselstyn:

I know, it's nutty. And then while at Whole Foods, let the audience know, what did you do for Whole Foods for almost a decade?

Alona Pulde, MD:

Yeah. So we worked with Whole Foods to establish medical and wellness centers that had merged both conventional medicine and nutrition and lifestyle medicine, which was an absolute joy to participate in as a physician. And there was the physicians and health coaches and really a lot of support around how to treat chronic disease differently, a lot using nutrition and lifestyle over pills and procedures where that was applicable. And it's as you know always a joy for someone in the medical field to actually see their patients getting better.

Rip Esselstyn:

Yeah, no kidding. And before you got the invitation to head up this medical and wellness center or centers at Whole Foods, you guys had your own kind of concierge medicine, and we saw some of that in Forks Over Knives with you guys basically taking Lee Fulkerson, the director who somehow or another was like, "Well, gosh darn it, oh, let me go through this program." And it was crazy what happened. Can you... Just as a reminder, for the listeners that didn't see Forks Over Knives or don't remember it entirely, what happened with Lee Fulkerson?

Matthew Lederman, MD:

Yeah. It was pretty fun because as you're filming, you're expecting to... You're working with, let's say Joey, or we're working... But everybody's watching behind the scenes and they're like, "Oh..." The information that we're telling Joey is getting into everybody else. So then they start doing little things at home saying, "Hey, I have some of those same problems. I'd like to have some of those same results too." And then they say, "Hey, maybe I'll try it." So it was really fun to see the camera crew and the director and everybody to start trying it on themselves too. That's how inspired they were.

Rip Esselstyn:

Yeah. And you mentioned Joey Aucoin, wasn't that his last name? Joey Aucoin?

Matthew Lederman, MD:

Yeah. [inaudible 00:07:53]. Just seeing all these symptoms improve. I mean, Lee's diet, he'll be the first to tell you at the time was...

Rip Esselstyn:

Total [inaudible 00:08:03] and trash. [inaudible 00:08:06] bad.

Matthew Lederman, MD:

Oh, my God. So it was nice because it was pretty easy to make impactful changes and see that impact pretty quickly. The sicker you are, the heavier you are, the worse you feel, the quicker and the greater magnitude of the changes, there's a more contrast to see. So it's really fun.

Some people will say, "Oh, I'm too far gone." And I'll say, "No, you're perfect. We're going to get fantastic testimonials from you." That was... Because it's so powerful to feel better all of a sudden and relatively quickly.

Rip Esselstyn:

Yeah, no. So is there ever such a thing as somebody that's too far gone?

Matthew Lederman, MD:

If you're still breathing, there's still work to do, that we can do something. So it's pretty fun. Even in no way... Even at older age, people are 70s, 80s, they can still feel better. Not only can they improve their longevity, but more importantly their quality of life for the remaining years that they have. So even in the last decades of your life, it's worth making changes.

Alona Pulde, MD:

I think Forks Over Knives, that was one of the more impactful moments for me even was when, I think it was Evelyn, I believe it was her name, basically got that directive from her physician to go sit in her rocking chair and let time pass until she died. And that's as far gone as you can get in the conventional system, like, "There's nothing more we can do for you." And nutrition lifestyle we're able to turn it around. So really great example of how that can happen, and it can happen again and again and again, that's what's beautiful about adopting these changes, is that the results are truly consistent.

Rip Esselstyn:

Yeah. You know what? Thanks for bringing up Evelyn. Evelyn was one of my father's patients, as you guys remember, and exactly, she was told to go home and basically rocking a rocking chair, get her affairs in order, and she basically was not given a year to live, and she was alive a good 15 plus years after that.

Alona Pulde, MD:

Yeah. How amazing.

Rip Esselstyn:

By following this protocol. Matt and Alona, I want to know, because you guys still look incredibly young and radiant. And so what was it that drew you guys from medical school towards this more kind of lifestyle medicine? Because it seems like back when you were doing it, it wasn't even a thing. It didn't even have a name like lifestyle medicine. I mean, now it's a thing, and I think in large part because of you guys being such trailblazers, but what was it about you that allowed you to go down this path?

Matthew Lederman, MD:

Yes. So I remember reading a book and a little bit through that book... And I was a resident? I think, yeah. Sometime in my training. And I was following with a bunch of my other medical resident friends, we were doing the Atkins diet, and I remember going and getting chicken and ranch dressing in the cafeteria and we're all sitting there, and that's what we thought was going to... And people were losing weight a little bit, and I mean, felt terrible, but I didn't know how bad I felt until I read this book. And I said halfway through, "I think it's going to make me be vegan."

And I go... I was really nervous about that, but I said, "Boy, they're making it sound really awesome that you're going to feel really amazing." And the way I am, I've always been like this, where I try something on myself to prove it wrong and I don't want to do it, but I can't just pretend it doesn't exist. So that's when I tried to eat rice and beans for a week just to see what would happen. And I felt fantastic, and I was like, "Oh, boy. I feel good." But I didn't want to be vegan. So then I said, "Well..." I came up with another excuse. I said, "You're not going to get enough protein."

Rip Esselstyn:

What was the book that you read that got you kind of fired up? Can you remember?

Matthew Lederman, MD:

It was one of those natural hygiene books, I think.

Rip Esselstyn:

Okay. So it wasn't McDougall or...

Matthew Lederman, MD:

It was not, I didn't even know about any of them. And then I tried. I said, "Well, I'm going to get out of this diet one way or another." And I said, "It doesn't have enough protein." And then I think I read a book by who is it? Brenda Davis maybe?

Rip Esselstyn:

Yeah.

Matthew Lederman, MD:

And I said, "Okay, great. I can get enough protein that's not..." Now I'm really struggling for excuses, "But I'm not getting enough calcium." So I came up with another excuse, and then sure enough, I looked that up and I'm like, "Wow, you can get enough calcium." I'm like, "Really? I'm really struggling here, guys." So then I said, "Well, I'm not going to be able to make this taste good. I can't live off of rice and beans for a week... Or for the rest of my life. And it doesn't taste..." You know?

Rip Esselstyn:

Yeah.

Matthew Lederman, MD:

So I got a vegan cookbook and it took me five hours to find all the ingredients in the store. Because I never bought these ingredients before and took me all this time to cook this vegan French toast. And I'm like, "Holy cow, this is delicious." And I said... So I ran out of bullets in my gun. I had to put the gun down. I couldn't shoot down the diet anymore. I couldn't find any excuses. And I said, "All right, I'm going to do it."

But I still said, I'm going to give myself an out. I said, "I'm going to eat animal products, if I can't figure out a way to make this plant-based diet taste good, I'll use the animal products as a last resort instead of a first resort." And I haven't needed them since. But that was really the... So I never had to say, "I can't do it, but I'm not going to just use it as a first resort. It's a last resort."

Rip Esselstyn:

Do you remember what year that was that you first got [inaudible 00:13:45]?

Matthew Lederman, MD:

I want to say early-mid 2000s. Early... Yeah. Somewhere around there, I can't even remember.

Rip Esselstyn:

I lo-

Matthew Lederman, MD:

And my friends, I remember my friends thought I was crazy all of a sudden I said, "I'm vegan." And they're like, "What is wrong with you?" They thought I found religion. And I was like, "No, you got to read these books." And they didn't want to read the books. But then I started, same thing with all the medical data that I was learning, because then I found McDougall and Campbell, and [inaudible 00:14:15].

Then I said, "Wow, I thought everybody else was going to be as excited as I was to learn all about all these answers." And I was surprised that they weren't. And that was when I first got my taste of what they were saying in the books was actually true in real life. That you can't look to a conventional system to heal you and fix you. There's going to be people that think outside the box, but you have to do what you can on your own to heal yourself and everybody else come around when they're ready.

Rip Esselstyn:

Yeah. And then at some point, didn't you also go and do a stint or some time at the McDougall program and you learn from John McDougall and some of the [inaudible 00:14:49] idea?

Matthew Lederman, MD:

Oh, Yeah. One of our greatest mentors.

Alona Pulde, MD:

Yes, he is absolutely one of our greatest mentors. We spent a lot of time in his immersion programs and he was gracious enough to let us see his patients and really mentor us. And it's been... Yeah, that was super impactful.

Matthew Lederman, MD:

Yeah, he was amazing. I would come up with a question and he would say, "Go grab The McDougall Plan book. Look at page 98, and there's your answer.

Alona Pulde, MD:

Paragraph so-and-so.

Matthew Lederman, MD:

Yeah, parrag... And I would go back and I'd say, "Oh, my God, it's right there. How does he remem..." He had this mind that could remember data like nobody I've ever seen before. And of the studies, I'd pull up the studies and I'd read them and it takes a while, but everything he would say was in there. And I'm like, "But people aren't reading this stuff." So he was, I mean, really an amazing, amazing guy.

Rip Esselstyn:

Yeah. Well, he certainly is a stickler for the data. No, no doubt about that. Alona, what about you? I mean, you guys weren't married yet or were you?

Alona Pulde, MD:

No. I-

Rip Esselstyn:

Did Matt drag you kicking and screaming into this lifestyle? How did that happen?

Alona Pulde, MD:

He definitely introduced it. For me, it was a little bit more of a tragic journey. I was in medical school having already done Chinese medicine for several years, and in my second-

Rip Esselstyn:

Can I stop you? So Chinese medicine, why? What about your background or whatever had you looking towards that? Looking out that lens, at Chinese medicine?

Alona Pulde, MD:

Yeah. I was drawn to medicine pretty young, and I loved the idea of being a healer and really being able to help people. It was just a passion that resonated so deeply, but the more that I kind of delved into the conventional medical system, the more I felt like, "This is not really delivering what I want to do."

There's so much reductionism and siloing. And at that same time, I was introduced to traditional Chinese medicine. And what I loved about it was they saw the whole person, and it was... If they're treating you Rip, it's not going to be the same as if they're treating Matt. You guys are different people having different issues, even if you show up with the same exact symptoms. There's a whole other story about you as an individual person and they treat that. And I loved it.

And so that whole philosophy really resonated with me. And it was really an integration of mind, body as well. So your emotions play a role in your physical state and a lot of balance seeking. And I really liked it and I wanted to actually pursue that. But my mentor there knew me better than I knew myself, I guess. She had studied in China learning both East and West. And she told me all along my studies, "You're never going to be satisfied just knowing Eastern medicine. At one point in time, you're going to jump into Western medicine, you're going to need it to complete your picture." And she was right.

So I went back to medical school, but in my second year of medical school, my father passed away suddenly of a heart attack. And it was completely unexpected and absolutely devastating, and I couldn't piece together. He was basically on a Mediterranean diet. He had high cholesterol, but was on a statin. And...

Rip Esselstyn:

How old was he?

Alona Pulde, MD:

He was 55. He switched from beef to chicken and fish like his doctor said, and all this stuff. And I couldn't wrap my head around how did that happen, "How did that happen?" I know Eastern medicine, I'm studying Western medicine. I can't piece together what happened here. And when I met Matt, he was already traveling that journey and he introduced me to Dr. McDougall and Dr. Campbell, Dr. Esselstyn, Dr. Furman. And the more I delved into what they were doing, I understood, "He wasn't getting the right advice at all. Of course, what happened could have happened." And so that was really eyeopening. And then we spent time at Dr. McDougall's immersions and seeing people get better over 10 days, things that I couldn't do as a physician ever, probably, he's doing in 10 days, was amazing. So it was kind of a no-brainer.

Rip Esselstyn:

So you mentioned your father in that tragedy and in reading, and we're going to get to this, but in reading your new book, Wellness to Wonderful, which is absolutely wonderful, an absolute gem. You mentioned that, I think, you met... You were kind of numb after your father passed away, and I believe it was in the ICU and this may not be the same time, and you were just completely disheartened, just in a bad way. And you looked up and you saw these, the kind doe eyes of Matt there and he was very empathetic. And is that how you met Matt?

Alona Pulde, MD:

Yes.

Rip Esselstyn:

Yes? Really?

Alona Pulde, MD:

Yes.

Rip Esselstyn:

Do you mind telling that story? And I know it's one that you tell in Wellness to Wonderful under one of the pillars, but since you brought up your father, I think it's perfect that you talk about that and meeting Matt.

Alona Pulde, MD:

Oh, yeah. It's a favorite story, so I'm happy to retell it. But not only was... After what happened with my dad, I just wanted to get out of medical system. I was so disheartened. And on top of that, I was having a particularly awful day in the ICU and I'm sitting writing a note, just feeling like, "Oh, my God. This is terrible. This is awful." Everything felt awful.

And I look up and there's Matt and he's just... There was this calm serenity about him and quiet strength, and he just looked into my eyes and he was like, "The ICU can be really hard." And it's that challenge and that empathic presence of like, "Oh, my God. He gets me. I don't even know him. And he's getting it." And it just felt really supportive. And it was the first time that I actually felt anything for a very, very long time, and that was really impactful. I remember actually going home and calling my mom and saying, "Oh, you know what? I met this guy. And he was just so nice." Yeah.

Rip Esselstyn:

Matt, where do you get that calmness from? Where doe that...

Matthew Lederman, MD:

It's a constant work in progress. No, I have a drive, a type A intensity. There's an intensity there, and then there's also the ability to soften into presence and compassion. So it's just this balance.

I remember seeing Alona and wanting to go over and talk to her. There was a draw. You know sometimes you get that, just that sense or that feeling, and you're drawn to somebody? So I just went over to her and wanted to talk to her. It was that simple.

Rip Esselstyn:

But were there any phone numbers exchanged or...

PART 1 OF 4 ENDS [00:23:04]

Rip Esselstyn:

Were any phone numbers exchanged, or? Because how did you find each other again after that?

Matthew Lederman, MD:

It was interesting. For those that believe in fate, I was not really loving ... I was a hospitalist at that point and looking to start and get out of conventional medicine and start our own practice. And I was usually on time, if not like a couple of minutes late because I didn't love being there. But I happened to be there early and I was walking in and then Alona, who ...

Rip Esselstyn:

This is on a separate occasion.

Matthew Lederman, MD:

... on a separate occasion, so we didn't exchange numbers then, but we just said goodbye. Who knew what was going to happen. But then Alona at the same time, I was walking in a little bit early, which was very unusual. Alona was leaving her rotation late, which was also unusual because she usually left a couple of minutes early or right on time to get out of there, because she didn't love being in the conventional system either. So she happened to be leaving early and I happened to be coming in and we crossed paths and then I got her number. Then I was like, Hey, I can't mess around, I can't take any more chances. So I jumped on.

Rip Esselstyn:

It was truly meant to be.

Matthew Lederman, MD:

That's how I think about it because that was very unusual to just, I mean we literally ran into each other.

Rip Esselstyn:

So you guys, you found this kind of lifestyle medicine, at the time was very unconventional. You kind of, I think, have figured out all the pieces of that puzzle for the most part. And I think all of us are a work in progress and we're always learning, but you guys have taken it to a whole nother level now, I think, with your nonviolent communication and the Polyvagal therapy and some other things that I think really are, in reading Wellness To Wonderful, now are really completing the whole puzzle. And so that's what I'd love for us to talk about for the remainder of this show, is your new book, your discoveries, how can we here, the listeners, actually have a life that is truly wonderful, because I bet you if we truly were to go out there and ask a hundred people, is your life wonderful? Maybe five people would say their life is wonderful. Most of us are not living a wonderful life we're living this mindset of scarcity, this fear-based mentality as you guys talk about in the book. So help me out here, where should we start this conversation?

Matthew Lederman, MD:

So there's a couple places to start. One is this idea of the binary life is wonderful or it's not. It's more this dynamic. There's moments that are, I'm in that state of wonderful and there's moments where I'm struggling. So this idea of how to redefine optimum health and what do we mean by wonderful, I'd love to talk about that. And also, the nutrition. We spend all of our time trying to simplify something that the biggest obstacle is all the complexity and noise. So to me, we'll tell people, nutrition's pretty simple. There's five key food groups, fruits, vegetables, whole grains, which include your starchy vegetables, legumes, and nuts and seeds. Eat as many of those foods as you can as possible until you're satisfied. Eat whenever you're hungry and stop when you're satisfied. And then if you're not going to eat those five food groups, make dishes using those five food groups as ingredients. That's it.

Rip Esselstyn:

Yeah, bam. End of story.

Matthew Lederman, MD:

Yeah. The bigger problem is I know what to do, but I can't do it. How do I get people to actually put those five food groups into their mouth? That's the challenge. It's not what do I do, it's how do I get myself to do it and do it over and over again for the rest of my life? So I think that right now, there's a lot of complexity and noise out there, which is confusing people. And sometimes when it's as simple as we make it, they almost don't want to believe us. It's got to be more complicated. Someone asked me, what is healthier, a green apple or a red apple? And I laughed and I said, what do you like better? And they said, red apples. I said, those are healthier for you then. And they said, why? I said, because you're going to eat more of them. But they're like, no, no, no. Let me tell you about all the antioxidants in the green skin compared to the red skin. And I was like, that summarizes the challenge that we're dealing with out there.

So I want to make clear the nutrition is so important, so we're not trying to say it's not important by expanding. We're basically saying, Hey, there's a lot of energy on this, there's a lot of people supporting this. And to us it's clear what to do, now what's preventing us from doing it? So that was sort of the impetus.

Alona Pulde, MD:

Because I think that's the key. It's what prevents us from, but a lot of us know, we know we should sleep, we should get an adequate amount of sleep. We know we should include movement in our daily living. We know we should eat a healthy diet and that plant-based foods are most health promoting. We know that, but still, we're not able to sustain or maintain those health parameters or health activities to promote our health. And so the question then becomes why? And many of these nine pillars then explain why you're not actually able to make those lifelong sustainable changes.

Rip Esselstyn:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I love quotes, and you guys have some of the best quotes that launch every chapter. So for example, chapter two is getting out of survival mode. And the quote that starts the whole chapter out is, the trouble with life in the fast lane is that you get to the end in an awful hurry. And how many of us are living life in the fast lane? And before you know it, your kids are out of the house, they're in college, you're in your seventies, you're retired. And it's like, wow.

For example, myself, I can't believe how fast the last decade has gone. It's crazy. And I wish I would've been more present and slowed it down and done a lot of things differently. And in reading your book, it's really, I think going to give me some of the tools to allow me to slow down, be present, learn a really more beneficial form of communication, not only with my wife, but with my children, and it's just going to be a game changer. So I'd love to talk about all this. Why don't we do this to help me guide this conversation?

Matthew Lederman, MD:

Can I say, before you do that, I just want to appreciate you, Rip, one of the qualities I love about you is how open you are, and you have the humility to say, here's what I know and here's what I don't, and here's what I want to learn and here's what I want to improve. Your ability to do that is so key, I think, to getting closer to living that life is wonderful experience. I just think that it's more rare than I wish, and I just want to take a moment to acknowledge that.

Rip Esselstyn:

Well, thank you very much. Here's one. Chapter six. You start off with, it's a new perspective on chronic disease, and this is a quote from Albert Einstein. "The most important decision we make is whether we believe we live in a friendly or hostile universe." And how many times have we been in this spectacular mood, and everywhere we go, it seems like everybody's in a good mood and everything's great. You're having a bad day, and everybody's in a bad mood. You're giving the finger, you're talking in a hostile way to people. I mean, do you agree with that?

Matthew Lederman, MD:

Yes. Yes, a hundred percent. And how you show up is what affects the lens of how you see the world. And we actually talk about that. In fact, there's data now, and that's where I think the Polyvagal theory is so fascinating, is that depending on your physiological state, which is basically are you in a state of high alert and threat, or are you in a physiological state of safety? So are the sympathetic fight or flight going, or are you feeling safe and you can connect and restore and repair? If you're in a physiological state of high alert and threat, it actually changes everything from the muscles in your middle year, so that you hear different frequencies more effectively. So if you're in high alert, you're going to hear low frequencies and high frequencies. Low frequencies are anger, high frequencies, someone's hurt, instead of the sort of more neutral frequencies.

So in other words, your ear gets tuned to sift out threat. The blood flow shifts from the forebrain to the hindbrain so that you are now more reactive and the prefrontal cortex gets less blood flow so that you are less able to connect. So it's not just that you're seeing it and you're making it up, it's actually that your brain is pulling out, because there's so much information that your brain's trying to perceive in a moment. But now it's going to pull sounds out and it's going to be looking for signs of threat when you're in a high alert threat state. When you're in that safety state, which we talk about, you're going to be looking for signs of safety and proof of [inaudible 00:33:22].

Have you ever seen that video, it was big on social media, the Laurel Yanny, so the same sound, you'd play it, and 50% of people heard Laurel and 50% heard Yanny?

Rip Esselstyn:

No, I haven't.

Matthew Lederman, MD:

You have to listen. It's really fascinating. It's the same sound, and I always hear Laurel and the rest of my family hears Yanny. So that became a way of us saying, you know what? I used to say, oh, Alona, when you said that to me, you had tone and you were angry. And she would say, I don't know what you're talking about, I had no tone. Now I say, I heard tone, or I perceived tone, meaning I heard the same sound. I heard Laurel, and you were trying to say Yanny. So it's really fascinating. That's how our body actually works. So when you're walking around out in the world, you're going to be searching for either threat or safety, and your physiological state will determine that.

Rip Esselstyn:

Well, and I love these examples, they really help drill it home. And in the nine pillars, pillar number one is self. You actually have a little section on sharing anger, and I think it might be the restore method, but can you talk about, and you just gave that great example with what you heard from Alona. I heard some tone in there. So how do you guys communicate with each other if you're, I don't know, a little upset with each other?

Matthew Lederman, MD:

Well, we've gotten to the point where we're now recognizing when our bodies, the term they talk about is mobilized, where you're sort of mobilized and ready for threat, to fight. So I can tell, Hey, I'm feeling more mobilized now, or I'm feeling, we talk about under-resourced, I'm hungry, I'm tired, I've just been cooped up. So that will also affect your physiological state. But if I'm mobilized or under-resourced, it's going to affect how I show up. So I'll even say to my kids and Alona now, this happened this weekend. I'll say, and I'm feeling a little mobilized, maybe a little more sensitive, and I might have tone in my reaction, or I might take things personally. So if you hear that, will you just give me a gentle reminder that that's not your intention?

Rip Esselstyn:

Wow.

Matthew Lederman, MD:

So you see what I'm saying? We come up with these tools that don't require me to always get it right, but now we're actually collaborating and supporting each other in our states, versus in the past, I try to not be angry, and that would just make me angry. I try to not be tense, and that would just make me more tense.

Alona Pulde, MD:

But that starts with, because it is in the self chapter, because it really starts with a self connection. The first thing that has to happen is even that awareness around, oh, I'm mobilized. Versus a lot of times what happens when we're in that survival mode state or that fear-based mentality, we're so immersed in it, we don't recognize it. It just is who we are versus, no, I'm really in this fear-based mentality state, I really am in that scarcity mentality. It's not who I am, but it is the state that I'm in at the moment. And so that self connection of am I resourced, am I mobilized? And how that impacts what happens next is really important first step.

Rip Esselstyn:

Well, what's interesting is, so you guys both know my mother, right?

Matthew Lederman, MD:

Yes, we do.

Rip Esselstyn:

And she was ...

Alona Pulde, MD:

Love her, by the way. I just got to say.

Rip Esselstyn:

But so constant, so constant, and never seemed to be under resourced or any of those things, was always kind of running at a very, very high level. So I think that for, I'll just speak for myself, I marry someone that isn't like that, that is much more kind of human on so many levels. And at the end of the day, we're exhausted and we're under resourced, and we can hardly speak a sentence. And we've got three kids that we have to put to bed, and there's dishes to be done, and put the kids to bed, and get ready for tomorrow, and make the lunches. And I've got my own work that I have to do, and you have your own work that you have to prepare for. And this to me, the tools that you just are talking about, are going to be just crazy helpful, crazy helpful. Because right now, right now, it's not working in an effective way.

Matthew Lederman, MD:

And that's where we talk about connection. In fact, Alona came up with the term nutrition lifestyle and connection medicine. And I think connection is so important, and that now there's so much science supporting the impact of connection on physical health outcomes. And it's getting more and more, as I put more and more talks together. But connection is so important. And connection, we talk about creating a quality of connection, whether it's with yourself or with other people. That is going to cause, not only put your body in a state of safety, it changes your physiological state from high alert to feeling more safe. But it also is the key to experiencing joy, satisfaction, and peace in your life.

So for example, when you talked about you came home and you were under-resourced and exhausted, and now you're thinking about all the stuff you have to, put the kids to bed, dishes, dinner, we think that connection's either like this big thing, it doesn't have to be this big thing. Just connecting to yourself and saying, I'm thinking about five different things to do and I'm feeling overwhelmed right now, and I just want to take a moment for some self-care, maybe just a minute or two. And you take a breath, and just right now my guess is if you even imagine that your body is going to start to regulate, that's the term, the need for regulation, regulation of the nervous system. So it can be dysregulated or it can be regulated. And the nervous system gets regulated, that means it's going from that fight flight mode and it's applying the safety break. We call it the safety break, to saying, Hey, you're safe. We can slow down here.

And then what's really fun is you can bring your kids in and you can say, Hey kids, can we take just a minute to connect here? Who wants to play with me? In our family we do something that's really fun. You could do it right now, we could do it right now if you wanted, where you just take a minute. Let's all check our number right now, and a 10, and we call it the check-in meter. And a 10 is like we're, that's super high dysregulation. And one is we're feeling really peaceful and open and curious and calm. So I want everybody to just check their number and notice what number bubbles up right now. If I take a breath, am I between a one and a 10?

So we'll do that and then we'll go around, we'll say, does anyone share your number? Whoever wants to can. They might say seven. And then we'll do something really fun, different breathing exercises. So for example, we have one where we call it five-finger breathing in our family. But it's basically where, and you can do it with me right now, it'll only take a minute. Hold your hand up and you put your finger here, and as you breathe in, you trace up, and then as you breathe out, slowly trace down. And it's a slow inhale and then an even slower exhale. And then again, nice and slow. Number four. And one more time.

Rip Esselstyn:

I also like touching myself too. That's very relaxing.

Matthew Lederman, MD:

It is, it's soothing. All of this is stimulating and sending messages of safety to your central nervous system. And then you go in and check again. Your number can be lower, it can be higher, it can be the same, but even the act of checking your number is sending messages of safety. But we'll do that with the kids where I'll trace my daughter's finger and she'll trace mine. And then sometimes we'll do all 10. But you see how now on the couch you have a tool, so instead of figuring out what to do, which is what we spend most of our time doing, strategizing, what do we do? We're focusing on how to be, how we're going to connect in the moment.

And then what we do will naturally happen, because afterwards you're all connected and you say, woof, I feel so much more calm, I feel more resourced. What do we want to do about dinner and bedtime? Anybody have ideas? And now we're working as a team, instead of Rip having to do it and figure it out all on his own.

Rip Esselstyn:

Yes. Yes, that is magically brilliant. You guys also talk about a thing called the duck meter. For example, clearing the dishes and doing the dishes. Talk to me about the duck meter and how we can incorporate that into our lives.

Alona Pulde, MD:

So a lot of times when we talk about the duck meter, we get the faces of, what are you talking about, and how does anything ever get done? And I think we don't realize the impact of doing things out of obligation. So many of us say yes, when really our heart is saying no. And over time we suppress the no suppress and repress, and that takes a physical toll too. It stimulates an inflammatory response in our body that over time leads to chronic disease. That's really important just to name. But in that obligation, we also build tremendous resentment toward other people, and the stories that build in our head. And so there's a really big toll around saying yes when you don't really want to do that.

And so we have come up with a tool in our family when we sense that there's a no behind that yes, to check in and just say, Hey, how many ducks is it? And what you're imagining, Marshall Rosenberg talked about this, he's the founder of Nonviolent Communication, and he talked about the idea is seven and above. You want to imagine you're a kid feeding a duck and the joy that you get from doing that is the joy that you want to experience when you're contributing to a situation. And so we'll ask our family, Hey, where are you on the duck meter? How many ducks is this? And if it's not seven or above, that doesn't mean they just don't do it. But then there's a bigger conversation to be had. So if I say, Hey, who's willing to help me wash the dishes? And my daughters are looking like, okay, mom, we'll do it with, and I'll ask, how many ducks? Well, it's five. Ooh, let's not do it yet then. Let's wait a second.

Rip Esselstyn:

Right, that's connect.

Alona Pulde, MD:

Yeah, let's take a moment to connect. Can I share with you? And then I'll share, can I share with you why I'm asking, or how that contributes to me? And I'll share, oh, I'm feeling really tired, and after making dinner, or whatever it is that I share with them. And it's amazing how when our family hears what is the story behind the request, there is a natural shift because we naturally want to contribute to one another if we understand the needs behind it. And sometimes maybe we won't, but then, again, we focus on that connection. And when you focus on the connection, when you come from that need-based, washing the dishes ...

PART 2 OF 4 ENDS [00:46:04]

Alona Pulde, MD:

Come from that need-based... Washing the dishes is a strategy. Needing support, that's my need. So is there a way to get support? Maybe it's just my daughters giving me a hug and saying, oh, mom, we're hearing that you're really tired. And just from that, I feel resourced enough to say, oh, you know what? Maybe I can actually do the dishes. So you see how you're not attached to the outcome or that strategy of doing the dishes, you're attached to the connection around a need for support, and what can that look like? And then the strategies become significantly more expansive. Does that make sense?

Matthew Lederman, MD:

Yeah, because we love saying things like I see... We talk about in NVC observations, feelings, needs, and requests. OFNR. So the first thing is to start with observations. And a lot of times instead a lot of people start with strategies. I need you to do the dishes. I need you to clean your room. My observation is the sink is filled with dirty dishes and I'm worried about bugs if we leave them.

Rip Esselstyn:

Yeah, right?

Matthew Lederman, MD:

And then I want to connect, and I'll say to my kids, hey, I'm really worried about the dishes. I want to get them done, but I'm not really feeling like doing them. Can you tell me back how you imagine I'm feeling right now? So now I'm helping them even give me some empathy. And they'll be like, dad, you're probably feeling a lot of pressure, a lot of weight. And then we connect around that. And then after we do the... I'll say, oh, you're playing your video game right now? My guess is you're really having a good time. And the last thing you feel like doing is dishes. And they're like, yeah, you got me dad. I'm like, so you don't want to do dishes, I don't want to do dishes tonight. How are we going to get these dishes done? Let's just leave them. And they're like, okay, great, we'll leave them.

And I'll say, all right, but what about the bugs? And they'll say, oh, I didn't think about the bugs. Okay, well maybe you play your game, I'll do my thing, and then 30 minutes from now, we'll check back in. Maybe we can do them together in 30 minutes or something. I don't know, but let's come back. But you see what I'm saying? And you can't do that very well if you're under resourced and you're like, I've got to do dishes, I've got to put the kids to bed, I've got all this work to do. So connection starts to get challenged when we... And this is where it's choice. When we choose to schedule ourselves in a certain way that we have so much to do that we don't see a way to have time to connect.

Rip Esselstyn:

Yeah.

Alona Pulde, MD:

And I just want to add one more thing because sometimes when people hear that, they're like, oh, that's such a weight to even have a conversation like this over washing the dishes, which takes five minutes. But if we play it the other way, so I end up washing the dishes, I'm under resourced, I'm feeling resentful. I then have tone with my kids or anger at my husband. The toll that takes and then our disconnection and then how do we repair that disconnection? That takes a huge burden on your energy and time also just on the back end instead of the front end.

Matthew Lederman, MD:

And everybody says what they're doing isn't working anyway. We still have challenges. So if what you're doing is not working, why not try another way? And the dishes is just an example of anything. Because I might say to the kids, you know what? I'm willing to do the dishes tonight, but I'm feeling pretty stretched. What do we do about the dishes tomorrow? Because I don't really want to cook for all you guys and then have to clean up all your dishes too. So can we come up with a plan about the dishes that's different? Tonight doesn't matter so much. What are we going to do in the future? And I do that a lot. Same thing with candy or junk food. I might say, you can eat candy, whether you eat it today or tomorrow, tonight or not, isn't going to make or break your health. But what happens tomorrow when you want it again and then the next day again? How do we navigate your need for health in that way? And then have them contribute to that discussion. Does that make sense?

Rip Esselstyn:

Yeah. This is really good stuff. And I can tell you that there's very few things that feel as good as when our whole family, there's five of us, three kids and my wife and myself, when we're all in the kitchen after a meal getting after it. So somebody's emptying the dishwasher, somebody's washing the dishes, somebody's sweeping the floor, somebody's clearing the table, whatever. But it's a team effort and that feels brilliant. It doesn't happen as often as we like it to and to your point where it's like, okay, we've got to do these dishes, who's going to get in here and help me? And it's always one of our daughters that's like, I'll help. And my son, I mean, it'd be like, no, no thanks. I mean, it's like, it ain't happening.

Matthew Lederman, MD:

That's exactly it. So when everybody does them together, it's really important to share how that affects you.

Rip Esselstyn:

Oh, we do.

Matthew Lederman, MD:

Because your son doesn't want to do them if he thinks he has to, and your son doesn't want to do it if he thinks his needs don't matter compared to his parents' needs. So there's an element of building trust and saying, hey, I know that dishes are not fun. I get it. But one, maybe we can make them fun. Can we sing? Can we tell jokes? How about one person does the dishes while the other person is reading jokes from a joke page on the internet and we're doing it together? My guess is if you did dishes that way where... Because to me it's not about the dishes. It's about everybody caring for each other and supporting each other and all of our needs mattering. So my guess is if he sat on a chair and said, dad, I hate doing dishes, but I'm happy to connect with you, maybe I can do this while you're doing dishes. Would you enjoy that, dad? And you'd probably say, that's interesting. Yeah, but now I'm not doing the dishes alone so that's interesting. Yeah.

Rip Esselstyn:

Yeah. I like it. Let's talk about family and friends. It's pillar number six. You talk about vulnerability and being vulnerable, which I think is so important and I know that when people open up and get vulnerable to me, it's like an invitation to connect at a much deeper level. And we're coming back to that word again, connect, aren't we? Right? Which is so important. But just to toss it up there for you guys, Alona, you guys talk about the example of you having some growing pains with boundaries around homeschooling with Kylie. Do you want to talk about that?

Alona Pulde, MD:

Yeah. So I struggle with boundaries. I've always been binary on boundaries, either I'm lax on them or I've had enough. And then they're harsher boundaries of enough, that's it, we're done. And this notion of warm boundaries where I can still take a moment to self-care and honor my own needs as well as care for those of my children has really made life wonderful. It has felt so expansive. And so the same thing around the notion of homeschooling, or when the girls go at it and they're fighting or whatever it is, it's that ability to say, hey, this is what I'm... Coming from that needs-based consciousness again. Sometimes it's I'm needing help with my homework and I have work that I need to do as well, or I have dinner that I'm making, or this is not an opportune time. How do we meet together where there can be some ownership on, I guess, where I matter too, where she matters too and where we can communicate those things, and that's the power behind needs-based consciousness.

If I can come with my need, my need is X, Y, and Z, I'm needing more self-care, I'm needing rest, I'm needing consideration here, I'm needing financial security, I'm choosing to do work, whatever that is. And she comes back with what she's needing. Now all the needs are on the table. We both get that impression that we do matter to one another. And then what are the strategies? How do I support homeschool? How do I support this argument? And how do I also support the other five or six things that I'm holding and working on?

Rip Esselstyn:

Yeah. Yeah. You talk also about life serving agreement versus conventional agreement. And is that kind of exactly what you're talking about right there in that example?

Alona Pulde, MD:

Right. Because again, it's that binary agreements. We either agree to it or we don't. We have to hold that agreement no matter what changes in our lifetime. It's not dynamic. And then at that point it's no longer life serving. Again, it goes back to that obligation, back to that resentment, back to saying yes, when really it has changed into a no. And then what is the backlash of that?

Matthew Lederman, MD:

Right. Because it comes down also to most people can hear a no, which is what a boundary is if they trust that you care. So if you can say no with care, it's much easier. And if you can say, I would love to say yes, but here's the need that's getting in the way of me saying yes right now.

Rip Esselstyn:

Let me give you an example and then you can expound on it the way you are. So my daughter was going to Washington, DC for her school trip. Two days before, she wanted to go to a friend for a sleepover. Do you know what happens when a 14-year-old goes to a sleepover with another friend? They don't sleep. They stay up all night. And then they're just a grump for the next two days. So that's the example I'd love for you to use.

Matthew Lederman, MD:

Here we go. So that's perfect.

Rip Esselstyn:

Because we had to say no, you cannot go to your friend's house two days before going to Washington, DC because it's going to be a disaster.

Matthew Lederman, MD:

Exactly. So if you can-

Rip Esselstyn:

Maybe that wasn't the best way to phrase it.

Matthew Lederman, MD:

I'm not going to point fingers Rip. But No, I think if your intention is to get your way, you're not trying to connect. Here's the key. We're not talking about permissive parenting either. My needs as the parent are not going to be overlooked either, but I'm going to connect about my needs and then we're going to strategize later. And I'm also going to take time to hear your needs before we strategize.

So if I come in and say no to something right away, all they're doing is trying to meet their needs as children. Everybody, all we do is try to meet our needs. So if you come in with a no, you're basically saying your needs don't matter. So right away there's disconnection. And if they're used to that, they're not even going to want to talk to you because they're going to be like, as soon as dad talks, he's going to try and tell me to stop doing something that's meeting my needs. So they're going to avoid you, not respond to your text or calls, try and say, oh, I didn't know, I'm sorry. But really they're trying to get their needs met and maintain their autonomy.

Alona Pulde, MD:

That's a really important need for children is autonomy. And their response in that binary way is, I'm either going to submit or I'm going to rebel. And that's what we see. We talk about the terrible teenage years is they've submitted for as long as they can for when they were powerless, when they depended on you, and then they get to a place where they can take care of themselves, where they have a stronger voice, where they can be more self-reliant and then they rebel. And they rebel hard and big.

Matthew Lederman, MD:

Right, because they can't rebel when they're living in your house. But if they stay at their friend's house and avoid being at home, all of a sudden now they're like, wow, rebellion works. And it's not that it works because they really desire connection with their parents. I don't think people realize this when I talk with teenagers, they all long for a deeper connection with their parents. They don't trust that it can happen or that their parents are going to care about their needs. So they avoid it, but it's not their preference. So with that example, I would say to my daughter... What's her name?

Rip Esselstyn:

Sophie.

Matthew Lederman, MD:

Sophie. And especially if I haven't done this in the past, I'm trying to bring in NVC into my family, I would say, hey Sophie, I know in the past I've come right with a strategy and told you what you should or shouldn't do. I want you to know that even if this is going to be hard for me with you, if you happen to be grumpy over the next couple days because you slept over, building trust and maintaining your choice is so important to me that I'm willing to endure that in the end. But before we decide yes or no, can we try this new way of connecting first about your needs and my needs? Would you be open to that? And do you see how right away, I'm now trying to connect to her and I'm lowering her resistance because I've told her I'm not taking her strategy off the table, but I want to put it to the side while we focus on connecting and doing this a different way than we have in the past.

Rip Esselstyn:

Yeah. How much work is involved, and I'm speaking for myself, I'm not opposed to work and digging in, but to really getting this nonviolent communication style? Is it something that you just have to practice it and practice it and kind of understand it? I mean, how long did it take you guys before you felt you were doing it consistently and doing it well?

Matthew Lederman, MD:

Well, I mean-

Alona Pulde, MD:

I'll get back to you. No, I'm just kidding.

Matthew Lederman, MD:

There's a couple things. To me, it's like learning a new language and immediately as you start to build the vocabulary and fluency, you get benefit. But you will continue to build that and grow that and enhance that over time. But yes, if you put the time in, you're going to reap the rewards. And I also came to the table lacking a lot of the skills. So I was sort of I would say way in need. Some people already have a little bit of sort of NVC consciousness naturally. I mean, I started, I had three feelings, good, bad, and angry. That was my vocabulary. And good and bad aren't feelings, right? So that to me was what I was starting with. So I had an uphill battle, but within the first month of really implementing it, I was like, wow, this is amazing.

And I can't always do it in the moment, to this day, I can't do it in the moment, but I could see the value. And I said, I want to be able to do this. So to me, that's when I started on the NVC certification path, which took over four years and was by far harder than even learning to be a doctor because doctor is all cognitive and intellectual, memorization, things like that. This was a connection between the head and the heart and really growing that. But it's by far the most rewarding skill. So my point is, I would encourage you, I wouldn't feel discouraged that if your intention is to connect, you can get there pretty quickly.

Alona Pulde, MD:

I think it's like a plant-based diet, right? When you shift over to a plant-based diet, some people do it a hundred percent and some people make gradual changes. And even if you make the gradual changes, you see small things can have impact. And it's that same thing, when our daughters, when we were first teaching our daughters that whole needs-based consciousness, everything was that's not meeting my need for respect or consideration. That's what we had, no matter what it was. That doesn't meet my need for consideration or that doesn't meet my need for respect. And over time, their vocabulary has grown. One of the things that helped us at the beginning was, we have a feelings and needs sheet in the book, is to print that out or copy it, put it up on your refrigerator, put it around your house, and start just noting that vocabulary. And you'll be amazed because it's so rewarding and it's so rewarding so quickly how self-motivated you become to learn more.

Matthew Lederman, MD:

And you have to say that I care more about connecting than getting my way. We always say, as long as it's not health or safety. And even then, if it's health or safety, making demands or getting my way is a last resort. So it's on the table because I'm not going to be permissive around health or safety, but I'm still going to put the time in to be where demands is my last resort instead of my first resort.

Rip Esselstyn:

So how long have you guys been actively engaging in this NVC as a family?

Matthew Lederman, MD:

I would say a solid five years of really digging in. We read it and when I first read it, I tried to learn it like I did my medical studies where I just read it and I'm like... I remember it was an audiobook and I listened to it. I'm like, this is great. It makes so much sense. I listened to it four times, but in the heat of the moment, I couldn't use it. I would forget everything and I would go back to my old way of doing things. To me, it's more important than understanding all of the rules intellectually. It's starting to get messy experientially. So I'd rather you not get the words right and get the intention and be willing to get in there and make a mess. I was just telling Alona this, I remember when we first started, I was tripping all over myself trying to use the words and going slow. And sometimes I couldn't figure it out, but the intention was there. And in fact, that created a connection even though I was messing up the words.

Rip Esselstyn:

Right.

Alona Pulde, MD:

I got to tell you though, Rip, that I see the benefits, I've seen them over the course of time, but I was telling Matt this morning, the girls were going at one another and everybody's been a little bit under-resourced in our house over the last week and just sitting with them and saying, hey, we're all under resourced, our shakes, we talk about a shake, having a full shake, having an empty shake. Our shakes are a little bit low and empty. It was amazing how quickly they were able to reconnect just having that vocabulary, having that awareness. Or the other day I was taking a walk with Kylie and she saw that I had a lot on my mind and she looked at me and she said, "Mom, is there anything that you want to share so you don't have to hold that alone?" And she's 11. I was like, wow, that's so cool.

Rip Esselstyn:

So cool.

Alona Pulde, MD:

Yeah.

Rip Esselstyn:

How old are your girls now?

Alona Pulde, MD:

So Kylie's 11 and Jordan is nine.

Rip Esselstyn:

Wow. I mean, I think what a gift to be giving your children to have this language, this connection that they're going to have with all the interactions they have throughout their life. I would imagine it would help with their friends, with their teachers, with their probably grandparents, you name it.

Matthew Lederman, MD:

Yeah. No, it's by far the most important thing I've ever done. Not only for my health and wellbeing, but for my marriage and my relationship with my children. I can't imagine what it would be like without that. And it really is doable. If this is important to you and your relationships are important to you, then this can work.

Alona Pulde, MD:

And I think it's really important for children because the empowerment and the agency that they receive from having that language and knowing that they matter, it helps them flourish and thrive in the same way that a plant-based diet does.

Matthew Lederman, MD:

We have all sorts of tools too around, for example, repairing. I think more important than getting it right is learning what to do when you don't get it right and how do you repair the connection? And I think a lot of problems happen when we don't repair and we sort of let it go and then we go on. And we don't do that in our family. We will repair disconnection. It might not happen in the moment. They might say, hey, can we talk about this later? But we repair and there's a process for repairing that's very different than saying, I'm sorry, do you forgive me? That's not repair. We don't even use the word sorry.

Rip Esselstyn:

Oh, wow.

Matthew Lederman, MD:

So it's very important to repair the connection, not to confess your wrongdoings and ask for forgiveness. So there's a lot of these changes. But like I said, it's so valuable. I mean, Jordan just today was really upset. She's the nine-year-old. And we were again alone, there was some health stuff going on with Kylie, with our older daughter, and we're sort of making some changes in the house and we're like, we've got to do some things differently for health. So we're a little bit intense. So I'm a little bit mobilized. So Jordan's picking up on that. I'm making changes and I'm focused on strategy before connection. And Jordan came and she had a little bit of tenderness or tears in her eyes, and she was like, "Dad and mom, I want to tell you something. I need a heart hug and I really want you not to get defensive about this."

And a heart hug in our family is sort of the code word. I think we talked about it in the book around I need empathy. I don't want you to fix anything. I just want you to hear me and don't try and defend yourself or anything. And she told us, you're telling me to do this and you're telling me to do that, and you're changing this, and I feel like I'm going to explode and I want to just run out of the house. And because we can hear her without saying, oh, what are you talking about? Or explaining ourselves. We can just say, thank you so much for that gift. And we actually call them a gift for telling me what...

PART 3 OF 4 ENDS [01:09:04]

Matthew Lederman, MD:

Thank you so much for that gift. And we actually call them a gift for telling me what's not working for you. It's such a gift that you tell me when your needs aren't being met and you don't hold that alone. And I'm hearing that you're feeling overwhelmed and you're hearing a lot of strategy and there's not enough connection, and you'd like to really have some more space and time and choice around changes. And she's like, yeah, dad, and you saw her whole body soften and that was it. Right.

Alona Pulde, MD:

And then she leaned into the strategies that we had going in the first place, but she was in choice now.

Matthew Lederman, MD:

right.

Alona Pulde, MD:

And that was super empowering. So the point is that you don't actually necessarily have to let go of what those strategies are, but there's a difference when somebody's coming to them from a space of choice or when they're coming because they feel forced or obligated to do that.

Rip Esselstyn:

Yeah. Wow. I think our whole family needs a deep dive into this. No, in all seriousness, so the name of your practice now is We Heal, right? So if people are interested in learning more about the nine pillars, NVC, all these things, what's the best way for them to connect with you guys?

Matthew Lederman, MD:

So if they go to the website, weheal.health, they can find more information, they can connect with us. We have classes, individual sessions, support groups, things like that. And what's really exciting is we've been talking with Scott Stoll, you know Scott, right? So,

Rip Esselstyn:

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

Matthew Lederman, MD:

He really also sees the value of non-violent communication and bringing that into the healing picture. So he asked us to come and do a workshop at the plant-based nutrition health conference in September. So we're going to be doing a workshop basically first talking about connection and connecting it to physical health and showing people some of the data and then showing them how to apply. And he also wants to bring it in for medical students on their plant nutrition platform for medical students. Right. To me, we just got to start getting it out there. And I'm so excited that there's so many people like yourself and Scott who are embracing this. We weren't sure what was going to happen with the nutrition community. Are they going to say everything's nutrition? Why are you talking about this other stuff?

But for us, it's so clear, not only in the data, but in our lives, that connection is essential. Not just a nice to have, but essential for optimizing physical health. So we're really touched by people like you who are embracing this and then saying, Hey, having the humility to say, I want to do this. I'm not doing this, and I want to. Maybe I even need some help. How can we do this?

Rip Esselstyn:

Yeah, no, this is, it's like, it's huge. It's absolutely huge.

Matthew Lederman, MD:

We do a role play. It's on the resources on our website. I love role plays for learning. And in fact, that's how we do a lot of repair too. After we reconnect, we'll say, we'll call it a redo. Can we do that same situation, but let's do it again? And we actually, like let's go through everything. We're not just talking about it, we're actually doing it. Again, it's a live situation. Sometimes we'll do reverse role plays and I'll say, I'm going to play you Kylie, and you play the dad. And sometimes she'll say, wow, afterwards, that's hard being the dad. I'll say, I know. Yeah. But this is ways, again, it's all about restoring the connection and us all trusting that we care about each other and want to do it differently, even if we show up in the moment in a way that's less than desirable.

So we do, on the website, we show an example where the mom played the teenage son who was using the devices more than she thought was healthy. And the teenage son actually happened to be in the audience and gave approval that we could do this role play. So I played mom, she played the son, and we show how to connect through these challenging situations that can be handled so differently. So I love role plays, and I think that's one of the best ways to learn. So I recommend that people take a look at that and just practice. Even if you can't do it in the moment, come back and redo it.

Rip Esselstyn:

Well, and you've got a lot of great resources in the back of this book that I know I'll be digging into, like activities to reduce stress, for example, right at the top of them. And you have,

Matthew Lederman, MD:

It's not about being perfect too. I want people think some I'm, they probably think that about you too, right? You're genetically different. That's why you can eat this way or there's something, but Rip's not like a normal human being, right? He's like a superhero. He can run and eat and it's just something genetically different. Right. I don't think that's the case. Right. We put our heads down and we try and do it, and we get back up when we fall off the horse. Right. We're not living a perfect diet or lifestyle. And I think that's the key, is that it's not about staying on the path for the rest of your life. It's about knowing where the path is, being able to identify when you're off the path and knowing how to get back on the path.

And to me, that's success. So life is wonderful. It has nothing to do with always being happy or always being on the path or all of your pillars being in balance. We look at the nine pillars, like nine children, and we're tending to them all. They're never going to all be okay where we don't have to worry about them anymore, and we care about them all. And sometimes one child needs more help than another, but they're there and we're doing the best we can in the moment. And that's how I'd love people to look at this is this dynamic lifelong journey.

Rip Esselstyn:

Yeah. And since we didn't get into all the individual pillars, I just want to go through them really quickly. So pillar number one is self. Pillar number two is, do you want to say it? I'll tee up.

Matthew Lederman, MD:

Yes, it's sleep.

Rip Esselstyn:

Well, nutrition. Yes. Yeah. Number three, activity.

Matthew Lederman, MD:

Right.

Rip Esselstyn:

Number four, play. How many of us as we get older forget how to play? Right. So sad. And actually that makes me want to read the quote you have on 107. Actually, you know what I'm going to do? Let me do this. So just to kind of, as we're closing out our time together here, let me read the quotes you have for each one of the pillars, because I love it. So we're going to start with self, and this is it. We are, and then you guys feel free to just chime in before I go to the next pillar, okay?

Matthew Lederman, MD:

Okay. Sounds good.

Rip Esselstyn:

Self is, "We are so accustomed to disguise ourselves to others that in the end we become disguised to ourselves," Francis de La Rochefoucauld, something like that. Isn't that that the truth?

Matthew Lederman, MD:

Yes.

Rip Esselstyn:

Isn't that the truth?

Alona Pulde, MD:

Yes.

Rip Esselstyn:

Gosh,

Alona Pulde, MD:

Yeah.

Rip Esselstyn:

Crazy. All right. Next, this is pillar number two is nutrition. "Those who think they have no time for healthy eating will sooner or later have to find time for illness", Edward Stanley. And we all know that's the case, right? Number three is activity. And here we go. Right here. "Take care of your body. It's the only place you have to live," Jim Rohn. Really I mean, so simple, but so profound. This is what kind of led me to this was play on page 107. "We don't stop playing because we grow old. We grow old because we stop playing," George Bernard Shaw.

Matthew Lederman, MD:

Yeah.

Alona Pulde, MD:

Yep.

Rip Esselstyn:

You guys playing, you guys play every day?

Alona Pulde, MD:

Was one of the reasons we moved to Orlando for a little while, is to really play with the girls for a bit.

Rip Esselstyn:

Oh, you mean like going to Disneyland?

Matthew Lederman, MD:

Yeah.

Alona Pulde, MD:

Yes, yes.

Matthew Lederman, MD:

We go to Disney World so much.

Rip Esselstyn:

Disney World.

Matthew Lederman, MD:

I think Alona likes it just as much as the kids, so it's good for everybody.

Rip Esselstyn:

Nice. Have you been to Universal with Harry Potter and all that stuff?

Alona Pulde, MD:

Girls are big Harry Potter fans, as am I. So yes.

Rip Esselstyn:

Sleep, right, pillar number five. "The best bridge between despair and hope is a good night's sleep," E. Joseph Cossman. Family and Friends 161. Here we go. Thanks everybody for bearing with me here. The strongest love is the love that we can demonstrate. Wait. "The strongest love is the love that can demonstrate its fragility," Paulo Coelho. Hmm.

Alona Pulde, MD:

That's the gift of vulnerability.

Rip Esselstyn:

It is, isn't it?

Alona Pulde, MD:

And yeah, and it is a gift that keeps giving. And we can see that. If we show up with vulnerability so often we receive the care, the support, the love and vulnerability back, a deeper connection.

Rip Esselstyn:

Yeah. Pillar number seven is work. "Too many of us are not living our dreams because we are living our fears", Les Brown. And just tell me what that means to you guys.

Alona Pulde, MD:

Yeah, I think in that fear-based mentality, we talk about that in the book, the fear-based scarcity mentality really constricts our life and limits our possibilities, and it really prohibits us from living our dreams or even imagining our dreams.

Rip Esselstyn:

Yeah, I mean, I look at you guys for example, and the path that you guys have taken from your concierge wellness to then Whole Foods and now leaving behind Whole Foods and doing what you're doing now. Because I mean, let's face it. I mean, it probably would've been very easy to just stay with Whole Foods and do your thing, but you guys decided that you wanted to explore some different modalities and stuff. I mean, there must have been a fair amount of fear there in breaking free like that.

Matthew Lederman, MD:

Yeah, it's really is scary to leave that routine, that sort of a sure thing, even if it's hopefully it was fantastic. It was a wonderful thing, loved working, love John Mackey's vision.

Rip Esselstyn:

Yeah.

Matthew Lederman, MD:

But at the same time, you get to a certain point where you're sort of ready to meet needs for meaning and purpose in different ways. Right. You're ready to contribute to society in a different way. You have different things you want to create and different challenges. Right. So to stay at a job where all of those needs are sort of raising their hands and saying, Hey, hey, are you aware? And you're like, no, no. We got to worry about getting paid every couple weeks and we got to worry about what if that doesn't work, and how are we going to make that work and what's going to happen? Right. All of a sudden, there's this fear just everywhere.

But what's interesting is the same amount of fear, I told Alona this, the same amount of fear that I have when I'm leaving is the same amount of fear I have now if I thought about going back to a corporate job where I didn't have the same ability I do now, to create and ideate and grow and develop in this very different way. So it's not even specific to Whole Foods, it's just, Hey, do I want to go into this big machine, big huge corporation, or do I want to try and create something small and exciting? Right. And to me, that's really telling.

Rip Esselstyn:

Yeah.

Matthew Lederman, MD:

And I ask people, we'll ask people, how much of your life would you change if you won the lottery right now? And it's really interesting if people can say nothing. That'd be pretty amazing. Other than maybe I'll go on a couple more trips or something, but I mean, substantially what would you change about your life if you won the lottery when you woke? What would change other than your bank accounts, having a couple extra zeros. No, I'd be hanging out with the same friends. I'd be doing the same work. I'd be contributing to society in the same way. That's pretty powerful to shoot for that.

Rip Esselstyn:

Yeah. No, I look back on my life and the journey that I've taken from being a firefighter, and when I think back, okay, what if I had never left firefighting something that I loved and adored to go and join forces with Whole Foods and be a healthy eating ambassador for Whole Foods for a decade and all the growth and all of the sure, discomfort that went along with that, but all of the learnings, the gratitude, everything that I got because of it. And then now having left Whole Foods and striking out on my own and starting all these companies and food line and stuff, it's just, it's absolutely remarkable. And there's another quote, you guys have so many good quotes that I just, but, and I probably will find it here, but let's move on. So pillar number eight, spirituality. Your sacred space is where you can find yourself over and over again. So how do you guys find yourself, how do you do that when you're feeling a little lost or under-resourced besides the five-finger drill?

Matthew Lederman, MD:

Yeah, the five-finger drill is great for regulating so that I get out of that flight or flight mode so I can actually check in with myself and that's where NVC is so helpful as a foundation to be like, what am I feeling right now? What are my needs right now? A lot of people aren't clear or not sure how to discern feelings and needs, and that's the first place I would start.

Alona Pulde, MD:

Yeah. For me, the practical side of that centering, I love to journal. And in that journaling, really letting kind of what's inside unfold is really helpful for me, going outdoors. I notice an immediate just decrease in mobilization when I can be outside and soak in sunshine and take a deeper breath and look out and see green. So those are two really fundamental practices for me.

Matthew Lederman, MD:

And spirituality for me is really about connecting to the fact that we're all waves in the same ocean. Right. So it's expanding what the self really is. Right. So there's self, which is me, but then there's sort of like the self with you kids is almost part of you where giving them almost feels like you're giving to yourself. You know what I mean? Imagine if we could expand that even broader to our neighbors and to the community around us and then to other countries. That to me is a big part of spirituality, is how do I expand my sense of self and create that interdependence. Because in the end, in NVC consciousness, it's really clear that I can't win if you lose. There's just no way. All of my needs can't be met at the expense of yours. That consciousness to me is part of that sort of speech, spiritual awakening.

Rip Esselstyn:

I like it. The last one, and it kind of ties into what you said, Alona is the natural world, pillar number nine. "In every Walk with nature one receives far more than he or she seeks." That's John Muir. I know I need to get out into the forest at least once a day.

Alona Pulde, MD:

Yeah, yeah. And part of that is, again, connecting to that interdependence. In that little cubicle of work, I can get so tunnel visioned and to be able to go outdoors and to be able to get that peripheral vision and to be able to connect to something so much greater than just me. There's a healing in that.

Rip Esselstyn:

Yeah. So I'm going to finish with this quote here, and it's this chapter it's called, It Can Be Different, Let Us Help You. And the quote is, "Although no one can go back and make a brand new start, anyone can start from now and make a brand new ending," Carl Bard. Good stuff. You guys. Wellness to Wonderful, your fifth book. Can you guys believe it? Number five. I mean, each one of these babies is crazy. Just to review for people, your first one was The Forks Over Knives Plan. Then you followed that up with Forks Over Knives Family, when you had your two little daughters. Forks Over, wait, no. Then it was The Whole Foods Diet, and then The Whole Foods Cookbook.

Matthew Lederman, MD:

Then we had,

Rip Esselstyn:

Oh yeah.

Matthew Lederman, MD:

We wrote Keep It Simple, Keep It Whole.

Rip Esselstyn:

That was the first, right?

Alona Pulde, MD:

Our little pamphlets.

Matthew Lederman, MD:

Our little starter book that gave people the cliffs notes we thought to nutrition.

Rip Esselstyn:

That's right. So this is number six.

Matthew Lederman, MD:

Number six, yeah.

Rip Esselstyn:

Incredible. Wow. So how tough was it writing this book? How collaborative was it?

Matthew Lederman, MD:

This was a, I mean, Alona led the charge and without her, nothing would've come to fruition. But this was, I mean, pulling in so much information, distilling it down, trying to make it accessible. I mean there's a lot of material in here, and it was intended to be a short book, and it just, there's just so much to address that it was, yeah, I mean, how was it for you?

Alona Pulde, MD:

It was very rewarding to be done, but it was a long process. Yeah.

Rip Esselstyn:

Do you guys,

Alona Pulde, MD:

I mean, a real culmination of all of our work so far. So,

Rip Esselstyn:

Yeah.

Alona Pulde, MD:

Yeah.

Rip Esselstyn:

Matt, that was really nice the way you asked Alona how it was for her. Look at that. See, I mean, these skills that we all, the empathetic and respect and all that, nurturing, loving, it's wonderful just like you guys. Thanks so much, Matt and Alona for coming on the PLANTSTRONG podcast. I appreciate you guys and what you are putting out into the universe, and I'm going to be there to support you guys all the way. Thank you.

Alona Pulde, MD:

Thank you,

Matthew Lederman, MD:

Thank you so much.

Alona Pulde, MD:

So much, Rip.

Matthew Lederman, MD:

Yeah. We really appreciate your openness and your just ongoing support and encouragement. Super, super grateful.

Rip Esselstyn:

Yeah. You know it. All right, you guys, can you hit me up with little PLANTSTRONG fist bump on the way out? Boom. See you guys. Miss ya.

Matthew Lederman, MD:

You too, Rip.

Alona Pulde, MD:

See you, Rip.

Matthew Lederman, MD:

Bye Rip.

Rip Esselstyn:

Bye. Weheal.health is their website and home base for all of their programs and their latest book, Wellness to Wonderful is a gem. We'll be sure to link up to this book and all of their resources in today's show notes. Thanks for allowing me to cultivate deep connections with all of you. Together let's go from wellness to wonderful, and as always, keep it plant strong. Thanks so much for listening.

Thank you for listening to the PLANTSTRONG podcast. You can support the show by taking a quick minute to follow us wherever you listen to your favorite podcast. Leaving us a positive review and sharing the show with your network is another great way to help us reach as many people as possible with the exciting news about plants. Thank you in advance for your support. It means everything. The PLANTSTRONG podcast team includes Carrie Barrett, Laurie Kortowich, Ami Mackey, Patrick Gavin, and Wade Clark. This season is dedicated to all of those courageous truth seekers who weren't afraid to look through the lens with clear vision and hold firm to a higher truth. Most notably my parents, Dr. Caldwell B. Esselstyn Jr. And Ann Crile Esselstyn. Thanks for listening.

 
 
 
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